apocalypsos | (no subject)

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I've been thinking. This is bad.

I'm a Libra. And I wouldn't be one to believe in astrology or even point out something that insignificant if I didn't act just like a Libra is supposed to. So when it comes to any argument, I try desperately to see it from both sides. It's why I can understand how Bush supporters can point out Kerry's flaws and be right at the same time that I can understand how Bush can even have supporters at this point.

But if Bush wins on Tuesday, I will be disappointed.

No, I won't just be disappointed. I will be "your mother" disappointed, the kind of disappointed that actually hurts.

Now, my mother ... I'm pretty sure she has no idea who she's voting for, but I know that she's not voting for Bush. I don't know if she's truly voting for Kerry, but I at least know that neither one of my parents are Bush supporters. (When Bush visited Scranton, my dad said he would have gone to see him, but he had to clip his toenails that day. Heh.) But I can say one thing about my mother ... my brother and I have both made up our minds to vote for Kerry, and considering that this is the first time either one of us has shown the least bit of interest in voting at all, and that my brother the self-proclaimed slacker has spent this election year becoming well-informed about the candidates -- well, she's proud. You can just tell.

If Bush wins, I'll feel the exact opposite of that about this country.

I simply cannot understand how anybody can vote for Bush. I can't. Look at what's happened in this country in the past four years. We've had two wars, one of which has quickly become a quagmire with questionable reasons for starting it. We've gone from a $200 million surplus to a $400 million deficit (and growing, almost beyond the legal limits for it). The education system is crumbling because of No Child Left Behind. Faith has gone from something the president simply has to something the president wields to restructure government. An amendment to the Constitution that particularly restricts the rights of a certain group of individuals is floating around the government halls. We've gone to from the worldwide support following September 11th to immeasurable loathing in the global community.

Any one of those qualifications, in the past, would have been enough for a president to be ousted. So why the hell does this guy get to stay?

I keep trying to come up with a reason, and the reasons that I come up with don't seem much like compliments, especially considering I've heard them from actual Bush supporters.

"He just seems like the kind of guy I'd like to hang out with." Well, great. If we don't talk about religion or politics, I probably would watch a football game and eat barbecue with the guy, too. The problem is, we're not voting for Miss Congeniality, or the best beer drinker at the frat house. We're voting for President of the United States, and we need a professional, not the guy who'll bring a keg.

Do I think Kerry's a professional? I think he's more of a professional than the guy I've seen in the job in the last four years. This last term has shown me that George Bush likes to start wars and blame them on chasing terrorists even if the evidence might be weak, hates gay people but doesn't mind buying their jewelry for his wife and daughters, thinks women should be "brood mares for the state" (in the words of George Carlin) because fetuses have a right to life but Iraqi children don't, can call Kerry a flip-flopper but change his mind on several key issues in the last few days before the election in a desperate grab to get votes, and can, without fear of reprisal from anybody in his own party, makes jokes about finding those nonexistent weapons of mass destruction while he sends young Americans over to Iraq to die for them.

"He got the job done." I even spotted this particular phrase on

jedusor's LJ today, as said by a Bush supporter. The job? Bombing the fuck out of Afghanistan (or alternatively, Iraq). And let's face it ... I think we all know that the Middle East loves fighting anyway, so really, why not bomb the fuck out of them? They'll like it, and we'll kill a bunch of terrorists! And even if we get a bunch of civilians ... well, hell, they'll become terrorists later if we let them live.

Well, guess what? "Kill everybody" is not a viable foreign policy. The entire planet is about ninety percent normal people and about ten percent absolute fucking wackos, and each individual country varies with that estimate with regards to how stressful it is. You know what that means? That means that no matter how you do the math, everybody who has died in Iraq is not a terrorist. Even if you use conservative estimates of the Iraqi death toll, not all of them were terrorists. Some were kids or mothers or grandmothers or, as pointed out in that article a few days ago, newborn babies whose mothers were too afraid to go out into a war zone to give birth.

"Hey, there will always be civilian casualties in a war zone." No, you know what? I refuse to accept this. I refuse to accept dead children in another country that we accidentally killed in an airstrike. I refuse to accept tortured prisoners because they were "probably guilty" and "it was just like a fraternity hazing", because God knows fraternity hazings are perfectly okay. And I refuse to accept a war that the rest of the world is slowly but surely turning completely against. Sitting back and sneering that they're wrong to go against the war and we'll just boycott their asses is not going to help us if terrorists attack our country again.

Do you honestly think other countries are going to help us out again after the way we've behaved as a nation since September 11th?

No.

And this time, unlike last time, they won't keep it politely silent that with our foreign policies, we probably asked for it.

"I won't vote for Kerry, because the Democrats will tax the shit out of me." Well, guess what? You know what taxes are for? That's right ... taxes pay for crap that everybody as a group wants.

Let's just point out one thing before I go any further. The Democrats may tax the shit out of you, but with Bush's shiny $400 billion deficit, the Republicans are going to have to tax the shit out of you sooner or later, too.

And it's not like Kerry's going to go out and buy everybody an abortion, or set up Satanism as the national religion, or get Sarah Michelle Gellar a nose job. He's going to do the exact same thing Bush would try to do with new taxes: spend it on stuff we might all need like a great big grocery list. The problem is trying to decide between a guy who'll buy you bananas and apples and salads and spaghetti and a thousand other things that are good and good for you (along with the occasional bags of Cheetos and a liter of Pepsi to gorge yourself on and make yourself sick and fat), and a guy who'll buy you a steady stream of empty-calorie Cheetos and Pepsi food. I might like that diet as a midnight snack, but I don't like it as an economic policy.

"Kerry sucks." Okay. You don't like Kerry. Is that the only reason you're voting for Bush? Because ten bucks says you're the same person who knocks on other people for voting "Anybody but Bush."

And do you honestly think that "He's not Bush" is the only reason people are voting for Kerry? Yes, that's a a reason a lot of people like myself are voting for Kerry, but when we say we'd vote for an eggplant over Bush, we're not being literal. Kerry has his good points that most of us like, and when put up against Bush, for a lot of us, he's a better candidate.

He's not the best candidate, admittedly. But when has there ever ... ever ... been the best candidate? My personal favorite candidate right now, after looking over all of their positions, is Barack Obama. Is he running for President right now? No. Could I still write him into my ballot? Sure. Will I? No. Know why? Because the fact is that while I like Barack Obama more than John Kerry, I still like John Kerry, I agree with his politics for the most part, fifty million other people are not going to go into the polling place and vote for Barack Obama, and I need Bush out of that White House. Anybody who says "But you're not voting for who you really want for President right now!" gets a smack. 'Cause seriously, I do want Kerry as President. What I really want is for Barack Obama to hold every single government position available, as well as serving sandwiches in the Capitol cafeteria and delivering singing telegrams in Congress, and until they legalize cloning, I'm kinda screwed. :)

"The terrorists would vote for Kerry." When the hell did the terrorists become Democrats? Did I miss a meeting?

And while we're at it, "Jesus would vote for Bush."

Okay, let's establish a fact. Jesus was not a naturalized American and was not born in this country. The terrorists are not in this country (theoretically). So who the fuck cares who'd they vote for? If Americans get pissy because a British newspaper tries to influence voters and tells them to butt the fuck out and mind their own business, then what the hell are we supposed to care about terrorists?

Quite frankly, depending on which terrorist cell we're talking about, they could go either way, couldn't they? Tell you what ... go back and tell me if Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican or a Democrat, and maybe I'll consider it. (And promptly discard it, because how a terrorist votes does not concern me even if he's American.)

As for Jesus, he's been dead for two thousand years. I'm more afraid of the way Cameron Diaz is voting, because the woman is actually allowed to and she thinks it has something to do with the legalization of rape. Er, no, Cameron, but if it had to do with legalization of lobotomies for everybody, we could sure save time and energy doing one on you, couldn't we?

What it comes down to, plain and simple, is that I don't understand why anybody would vote Bush after the disastrous state he's left this country in. Do you like arguing with everybody? Great, vote Bush and enjoy it for the next four years. Do you like the deficit getting that much bigger? Great, vote Bush and bankrupt the country. Do you like fighting the rights of unborn Americans to live while killing living, innocent Iraqi civilians? Great, vote Bush and we'll just keep shooting and blowing shit up until Iraqis are a distant memory.

If there was one single reason I could see from the other side to vote for Bush, I would just shake my head and throw up my hands in defeat.

But I can't. I just can't.

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A very nice rant. As to why this guy gets to stay - we are entertained. There is no mass starvation, there is no massive body of unemployed that are united (or even interested in being identified as a body of unemployed), there is no evident mass disease. The deficit is too large to consider, the war in Iraq is too far away for most people to realise. The only things that can be blamed on the government-as-it-is right now are seen as small, isolated events. (Even as the figures indicate what a lie that is.)

In other words, it's bread and circuses here. We are still entertained by our televisions and our computers and our other input devices, so there's nothing to worry about, because nothing the government does affects us. We are, by and large, still living our lives to the same level of comfort as we were prior to Bush's "election", so there is nothing to worry about. Even if this viewpoint is incorrect, the things that are wrong are too distant to affect my life, so there's no reason to worry about them.

Therefore, since nothing is immediately wrong, and no one is immediately starving in the gutter because of the war in Iraq, no one will unseat the President. The people have the right to overthrow any tyrannical government, but this one is not seen as impinging on our lives. Nothing that it does is creating mass starvation in the streets, nothing it does is provoking the necessary anger and chaos to generate a popular impeachment/overthrow attempt.

We are entertained, and more to the point, we are sedated by our entertainment.

Cameron Diaz [...] thinks it has something to do with the legalization of rape.

Was there one particular thing she misunderstood to come up with that, or is she simply on crack?

My two 'favorite' reasons for voting for Bush are: "Kerry's ugly" (this seems to fit in with your Miss Congeniality rebutal) and "Kerry's a wimp". The second one particularly baffles me, as the primary evidence for it seems to be his purple hearts.

When I was in America, a friend of a friend said she'd be voting Bush 'cause he was hot and a good football player.

This worries me.

This was a great post. You just outlined everything I've been feeling about the whole situation.

Also, I found out yesterday that one of my good friends, who had been undecided the last time I talked to her, sent in her absentee ballot for Kerry. I feel so damn proud.

While standing in line for early voting I was behind a woman who was raised Democrat, but admitted she liked Bush because
(a) He cares about families, and that is important to her
(b) He has protected us.
She spoke about how there are so many things that the government and the media aren't telling us about weapons and things found in Iraq, proof that so many terrorist attacks could have happened since 9-11 but haven't. She did not specify how families are protected by the marriage amendment, only that they were and that she was terrified of the prospect of families being destroyed.
She spoke with wide eyes and hushed tones that she wanted the war over there, and not here.
When I speak to my boss (hardcore Republican), she has the same opinions - that surely we are not being told everything, surely the President's actions have resulted in hundreds of thousands of terrorist attacks being prevented. She also believes that Kerry and his wife hate America, though she could not provide any reasoning behind that statement. She does not agree with the Right's take on women's reproductive issues (abortion, birth control, etc), but I doubt that would be enough to sway her, as her children are grown and have families already, and as such things like abortion are not a potential necessity for her or her family.
The geekish man in front of me at early voting voted for Kerry because Dick Cheny scares the hell out of him. The three of us agreed that Cheny is, in fact, an evil robot.

And while we're at it, "Jesus would vote for Bush."

You know, I would say something like, "You're fucking kidding me!" but no, no sadly I believe this. I believe this because an older gentleman at my work said yesterday (rather without prompting):

"You know, 75% of liberals who are voting for Kerry don't believe in God."

What the hell? I mean, WHAT IN THE FLYING CATHOLIC, WORST CAST, PAGANIZED VERSION OF THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW??? My friend asked him where he got that figure and he refused to answer.

If you can't vote for Bush on his policy, why would you vote for him? He's a politician. His job is policy. I don't care what he worships or who his wife is if he's doing the damn job he was hired to do.

And what you said on taxes, I was saying that to my family last week. It's not like taxes are this evil bain of the nation. It's how you run the government! We, the people, pay for Bush. We Pay the Congressman. We build the monuments. We are the country. It's that simple.

Voting for religion/faith, is just wrong. I swear, even the most strident Christian does NOT want the government to be run with religion in mind. I promise, they don't, not really when the repercussions start to impact.

Ah, well. I'm just preaching to the choir. Thanks for the soapbox.

I usually don't get into this kind of debate, as it tends to quickly escalate, but you're a reasonable person, so I'll try, for once ;)

I see where you're coming from, I really do, but I disagree with you on several points. But first, please keep in mind that I'm European, so obviously I don't vote, but I still like to keep informed of what's going on in the world. Also, I'm politically left-wing, if that matters at all.

About the way the US are perceived abroad, I can tell you that if things escalated in the past three years, there was already some latent anti-Americanism here (Western Europe, I can't speak for the UK), as the US was alternatively perceived as wanting to play "world's policeman" or on the contrary to be too isolationist. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or even logical, just that the feeling was already there, *before* Bush.

Secondly, the "he's a guy I'd like to hang out with" as a reason to vote for Bush is indeed none too clever... but honestly, there are just as many stupid reasons expressed by Kerry supporters (the "an eggplant rather than Bush!" that you mentioned, but also an omnipresent "Bush is an idiot/moron/douche/demon/...", when it isn't simply "because Edwards is cute!").
Frankly, there are a number of people on LJ who express their opinion intelligently as to why they'll vote Kerry, but the majority seem to do so because it looks like the "enlightened" thing to do. When pressed to support their position, it goes right down to "Bush is a douche", along with absolute blindness to what the Democrats could do wrong, and a trademark instant aggressive rudeness to anyone not agreeing with them. And I have seen that over and over again.

I understand you maybe haven't heard valid reasons as to why people could vote for Bush, but there *are* intelligent people who do, and for well-thought-out reasons (

kenshi, for example - pop over his LJ and read a bit, you'll see what I'm talking about).

Also, I completely understand how gay marriage is a key issue (as a side note, it's legal here, just so you know where I'm coming from), and how Bush is against it. Now the question is: is *Kerry* in favor of it? Did he say he would allow gay marriage? Because if he didn't, I don't see how this point is important in deciding between the two candidates.

...and this is turning into a novel, so I'll stop here. ;)

That's a good way to put it.

I was also thinking something along the lines of 'charisma in a candidate goes further than qualifications'. No matter how intelligent Kerry is, he just LOOKS like a stiff. He can't help it. He's tried, and dear god, the ensuing goofy sports pictures just made it worse. But the Chimp in the White House? Everyone loves a clown. Even IF that clown has his finger on the big red button...

Now the question is: is *Kerry* in favor of it? Did he say he would allow gay marriage? Because if he didn't, I don't see how this point is important in deciding between the two candidates.

Kerry said that he personally believes that homosexuality is a sin because he was raised Catholic, but that he would not allow his personal beliefs to dictate his politics and that he would not support a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. He said he'd leave it up to the states because they've done a fine job of handling it so far.

(not exact words - but the best I can remember of what he said in the domestic policy debate)

Last I heard, neither candidate SUPPORTS gay marriage. Bush is just more vocal about it. Which, you know, really is disappointing.

My roommate is not registered to vote.

A few weeks ago, she ended up in the hospital. She has no health insurance and is now more than $3,000 in debt with hospital bills.

But she stated that if she were registered to vote, she would vote for Bush.

Mind boggling, isn't it?

Yeah, that sounds like what I've heard before.

But MOST states are still banning the hell out of it. Mississippi, where unfortunately I live, is voting on a state constitutional change to ban gay marriages "fowevar and evar!" Sigh. And it doesn't matter what vote *I* cast, because the majority of the voting public here is against it.

My old roommate REFUSES to vote. She doesn't think it'd matter. I think the real reason though is she's too lazy to learn about the candidates. And the issues. AND how they WILL end up impacting her. Sigh.

...'cause he was hot...

This horrifies me. And not because that's no reason to vote somebody for president but because SHRUB ISN'T HOT!

I need to be disinfected now *shudder*

It was in the second debate. I actually linked to the questions on my blog, which I will come back and leave a link on so you don't have to go looking in case you are interested. Following the question on Gay Marriage, Kerry also said "I will not legislate faith."

I thought he was rather well spoken.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/whispersinink/181307.html?mode=reply

~~My pointless observations~~ Reasons for voting for Bush:

1. Fear of the enemy- If 9/11 hadn't happened, he probably wouldn't stand a chance in this election. He did everything in his power to make people afraid, so that they'll feel that they need him to protect them. (Hey, if you're going to try to use the president as a human shield, shouldn't you at least go with the taller guy?)

2. Stubbornness- At least two of my family members will vote for Bush, just because that's who my father would have voted for. My father has, in fact, been dead for two years now. And the only reason he would have voted for Bush is because he was too stubborn to see that the Republicans were no longer the people that they've always claimed to be.

3. Fear of the unknown- Yes, everyone knows that the economy sucks right now, but every is also abundantly aware that things could be worse. Lots of people are afraid of upsetting the applecart when they're not entirely sure which way the apples will roll.

Personally, if Bush wins, I'm going with morose with a side of terror. And there's a bottle of cheri-beri pucker with my name on it.

"The terrorists would vote for Kerry." When the hell did the terrorists become Democrats? Did I miss a meeting?
There is a theory about this last Video From Osama, that he is trying to get people to vote for Bush.
Bush it seems is a fantastic recruitment incentive.

Eh, my roommate has stated that if Bush wins in the manner of the last election, we are going to march on Washington with the rest of the liberal backlash. I know this is wrong, but I always wanted to see DC. Maybe take in some sites, statues, museums... might even get on TV.

I'm probably missing the point. ;)

Then again, by the roomie's decree, we will be moving to Australia.

Yes, I thought he was extremely well spoken also - and I'm glad someone remembers more specifically what was said :)

My roommate says she's not registered "for a variety of reasons" but she's never expounded on them to me.

The problem is you're not going to find many politicians who support gay marriage, or even civil unions. The fact that there are any willing at all is pretty impressive, considering that the majority of Americans seem to think legalization of gay marriage=drunken gay orgies in the streets right next to public parks so children, nuns, and old people can see them.

Urgh.

In regards to the perception of Americans..

While it is true that we were already perceived badly, I feel that Bush confirms these beliefs. And has also managed to magnify the sentiment all over the world. Being a first generation American, I had (and still have) some negative perceptions of (white) America. Once I got out ~~of New Cuba~~ and MET "the average American", I was pleased to find that they're not as...cocky and ignorant as they seem.

And then Bush gets voted into office! He who embodies every negative stereotype about this country. THIS man we choose to lead our country. I almost lost hope. The way I see it, when voting for any political office, we are picking a representative. The person that best aligns with our beliefs, ideas, and views on our country and our world. So I was all, "wow, most Americans are like HIM?? But but..." Sigh.

And so for four years this man has MISrepresented me. And most of the people I know. I would like to say that he's misrepresented this country. But considering he's actually doing a good job of getting reelected...

Geez, I depressed myself. And got no point across. Great.

I don't doubt the recruitment bit for a minute. The man has blamed the terrorists for so much, it'd piss me off, too, if I were one of them.

Ooo, Australia. Probably a good idea. Canada really isn't far enough away.

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I've got a good one for you

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the transcripts of the questions on gay marriage, and faith

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