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apocalypsosSo the other day when I was working on one of the Supernatural fics I have on my to-do list, I started thinking about the brothers and their relationship, and the way we view them because of it.
I think it's pretty obvious that the strongest thing about Supernatural is the relationship between Dean and Sam. I mean, take a look at the fanfic. Most of the fanfic isn't about the creatures they fight -- hell, try to find a plot-heavy, fighting-the-big-bad fic in which the brothers and their relationship is secondary. It's really hard. Not impossible, mind you, but still pretty damn difficult. Personally, I prefer the fact that the writers care more about developing Sam and Dean than developing the plot -- I'm a character junkie anyway, so if the Winchesters and their mission is more intricately detailed than, say, the giant bog monster with gills they're fighting this week, I'm a happy camper.
Now, anybody who reads me regularly knows I have a little brother. Bryan's nineteen, and he's awesome, and we never fight. That sounds like an exaggeration, but ... nope, never. At his high school graduation party, a cousin of my dad's had two little kids who were running around torturing each other (the brother torturing his little sister, more aptly), and their mom was apologizing for their behavior to our mother, telling her that her kids hardly ever fight. My mom kind of looked at the two of us standing a few feet away talking like she was realizing something for the first time and said, "Huh. I don't think my kids have ever had a fight."
My brother and I looked at each other and shook our heads. The other mom proceeded to look at us like we were Stepford children. Heh. We're evil. ;)
Anyway, I tell you that because I know for a fact that my close relationship with my brother colors the way I look at Sam and Dean individually. I tend to identify with Dean and his behavior a lot, even though I don't have that much in common with him as a person. (Let's not even get into the fact that yesterday when I was at Wal-mart I nearly bought a pair of black shitkicker boots for twenty bucks that I couldn't afford because I loved them to pieces, only to realize later when I thought about it they were probably more feminine versions of what Dean would wear. But, still.) It's why inevitably when the two of them do argue, I'm almost always on Dean's side. It's not because he's always right, because sometimes he's making a dumb move and I don't agree with him, but I can't help it. It's because Sam does a LOT of that little-brother selfishness that drives me nuts sometimes.
Okay, I probably shouldn't call it selfishness. But it's like this. When I was a teenager and I hadn't cleaned my room, my mother would have fits until I cleaned my room. She'd take things away and cut off my phone until I mostly just cleaned out of boredom. Cut to when my brother was a teenager, when she'd yell and yell and finally go in and clean his room for him while yelling that she has to do it. I've been telling her for years, "Mom, he's learned that if he can put up with your voice for a few hours, you'll do it for him," and yet she keeps doing it.
It's that older-sibling, younger-sibling difference to the way you get treated that sometimes throws me when it comes to Sam. I can't side with Sam a lot of the time because as much as the Libra in me tries to see both sides, I'm seeing it more from Dean's point of view regardless, which is, "You have to take care of this person," which can easily be translated to other people. Seeing it from the little brother perspective, which is, "Someone will always be there to take care of you," is more difficult. And for the record, I'm not saying that the younger-sibling mentality is a bad thing. It's just something you get used to. Occasionally, I'll see the difference in my own parents, because my dad was the oldest of three kids growing up -- and later found out he had two other younger siblings -- and my mom was the youngest until my twin uncles were born. You can see it a lot in the fact that my mother was always the more stubborn of my parents, while my dad was always a little more reasonable.
Getting back to the Winchesters, I think that's a lot of reason why I can't really see an alternate world where Sam is the one who stays and Dean is the one who goes. As an older sibling, I've simply gotten into the habit of taking care of rather than being taken care of, and it's the same way with Dean. I think that's why for the most part Dean has shown an attraction for women who either take care of others or can take care of themselves. He's more apt to be attracted to a woman who's more of an equal to him in regards to how they treat others.
Meanwhile, you've got Sam, who's more used to being taken care of by others and likes it. Hell, who wouldn't? But again, not a bad thing, since because of the younger-sibling mentality and the fact that he's the more sensitive of the two, he leans more towards women he can protect in turn -- Jessica, Lori, Meg (seemingly ... she certainly appears to be playing that 'I'm too stupid and simpering to live without protection!' angle).
The birth-order thing is why I can always find Dean attractive regardless of what he's doing, but as attractive as I find Sam (and would in real life -- I love Dean, but Sam's my brainy-beanpole type), it's when he's interacting with Dean that there are times his behavior completely jars me out of any hotness I might see in him. He just acts so much like a little brother -- and sometimes more specifically like MY little brother -- that it's just ... NO. And the need to protect a girl coming from him would drive me nuts, which to a lesser extent is the same sort of taste in girls my own brother has. The girls he dates are sweet and well-meaning, but if zombies invade town, these are not the sort of girls you can hand baseball bats and guns to and send to the front lines. These are the girls you send to the back to babysit the pets. Meanwhile, if I could find a guy like Sam who, when zombies attack, would hand me a sawed-off shotgun like Dean would, he would be perfect. :)
The older-sibling thing is also why I have an easier time writing Sam than I do Dean. I love Dean to bits and pieces, but I've lived with Sam. I've talked with Sam. I've shared a bathroom with Sam for eighteen years. Change a few details about Sam, and I know him personally.
So, I was wondering as a Supernatural fan with a younger brother how your relationship with your siblings colors your views of Supernatural as you watch.
I think it's pretty obvious that the strongest thing about Supernatural is the relationship between Dean and Sam. I mean, take a look at the fanfic. Most of the fanfic isn't about the creatures they fight -- hell, try to find a plot-heavy, fighting-the-big-bad fic in which the brothers and their relationship is secondary. It's really hard. Not impossible, mind you, but still pretty damn difficult. Personally, I prefer the fact that the writers care more about developing Sam and Dean than developing the plot -- I'm a character junkie anyway, so if the Winchesters and their mission is more intricately detailed than, say, the giant bog monster with gills they're fighting this week, I'm a happy camper.
Now, anybody who reads me regularly knows I have a little brother. Bryan's nineteen, and he's awesome, and we never fight. That sounds like an exaggeration, but ... nope, never. At his high school graduation party, a cousin of my dad's had two little kids who were running around torturing each other (the brother torturing his little sister, more aptly), and their mom was apologizing for their behavior to our mother, telling her that her kids hardly ever fight. My mom kind of looked at the two of us standing a few feet away talking like she was realizing something for the first time and said, "Huh. I don't think my kids have ever had a fight."
My brother and I looked at each other and shook our heads. The other mom proceeded to look at us like we were Stepford children. Heh. We're evil. ;)
Anyway, I tell you that because I know for a fact that my close relationship with my brother colors the way I look at Sam and Dean individually. I tend to identify with Dean and his behavior a lot, even though I don't have that much in common with him as a person. (Let's not even get into the fact that yesterday when I was at Wal-mart I nearly bought a pair of black shitkicker boots for twenty bucks that I couldn't afford because I loved them to pieces, only to realize later when I thought about it they were probably more feminine versions of what Dean would wear. But, still.) It's why inevitably when the two of them do argue, I'm almost always on Dean's side. It's not because he's always right, because sometimes he's making a dumb move and I don't agree with him, but I can't help it. It's because Sam does a LOT of that little-brother selfishness that drives me nuts sometimes.
Okay, I probably shouldn't call it selfishness. But it's like this. When I was a teenager and I hadn't cleaned my room, my mother would have fits until I cleaned my room. She'd take things away and cut off my phone until I mostly just cleaned out of boredom. Cut to when my brother was a teenager, when she'd yell and yell and finally go in and clean his room for him while yelling that she has to do it. I've been telling her for years, "Mom, he's learned that if he can put up with your voice for a few hours, you'll do it for him," and yet she keeps doing it.
It's that older-sibling, younger-sibling difference to the way you get treated that sometimes throws me when it comes to Sam. I can't side with Sam a lot of the time because as much as the Libra in me tries to see both sides, I'm seeing it more from Dean's point of view regardless, which is, "You have to take care of this person," which can easily be translated to other people. Seeing it from the little brother perspective, which is, "Someone will always be there to take care of you," is more difficult. And for the record, I'm not saying that the younger-sibling mentality is a bad thing. It's just something you get used to. Occasionally, I'll see the difference in my own parents, because my dad was the oldest of three kids growing up -- and later found out he had two other younger siblings -- and my mom was the youngest until my twin uncles were born. You can see it a lot in the fact that my mother was always the more stubborn of my parents, while my dad was always a little more reasonable.
Getting back to the Winchesters, I think that's a lot of reason why I can't really see an alternate world where Sam is the one who stays and Dean is the one who goes. As an older sibling, I've simply gotten into the habit of taking care of rather than being taken care of, and it's the same way with Dean. I think that's why for the most part Dean has shown an attraction for women who either take care of others or can take care of themselves. He's more apt to be attracted to a woman who's more of an equal to him in regards to how they treat others.
Meanwhile, you've got Sam, who's more used to being taken care of by others and likes it. Hell, who wouldn't? But again, not a bad thing, since because of the younger-sibling mentality and the fact that he's the more sensitive of the two, he leans more towards women he can protect in turn -- Jessica, Lori, Meg (seemingly ... she certainly appears to be playing that 'I'm too stupid and simpering to live without protection!' angle).
The birth-order thing is why I can always find Dean attractive regardless of what he's doing, but as attractive as I find Sam (and would in real life -- I love Dean, but Sam's my brainy-beanpole type), it's when he's interacting with Dean that there are times his behavior completely jars me out of any hotness I might see in him. He just acts so much like a little brother -- and sometimes more specifically like MY little brother -- that it's just ... NO. And the need to protect a girl coming from him would drive me nuts, which to a lesser extent is the same sort of taste in girls my own brother has. The girls he dates are sweet and well-meaning, but if zombies invade town, these are not the sort of girls you can hand baseball bats and guns to and send to the front lines. These are the girls you send to the back to babysit the pets. Meanwhile, if I could find a guy like Sam who, when zombies attack, would hand me a sawed-off shotgun like Dean would, he would be perfect. :)
The older-sibling thing is also why I have an easier time writing Sam than I do Dean. I love Dean to bits and pieces, but I've lived with Sam. I've talked with Sam. I've shared a bathroom with Sam for eighteen years. Change a few details about Sam, and I know him personally.
So, I was wondering as a Supernatural fan with a younger brother how your relationship with your siblings colors your views of Supernatural as you watch.
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Date: 2006-01-27 07:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-27 07:50 pm (UTC)It's hard so maybe it'll be better when he's older.
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Date: 2006-01-27 07:50 pm (UTC)Hmph. I wonder if this is a sister thing, or a my-family-is-retarded-and-assbackwards kind of thing.
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Date: 2006-01-27 07:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-27 07:51 pm (UTC)Yeah, I'm the opposite of you. I have a brother who's five years older (though we've never fought either), and I am totally the spoiled youngest child.
I think in a lot of ways, their relationship is classic birth-order stuff. Dean is the good soldier, not because he's weak-willed, but because he has a responsibility and he feels that in a way that Sam really can't relate to because he's the baby.
The way it's most apparent to me (uh, the way my sibling experience colors my view of the show) is the way they deal with their dad. To some extent, Dean needs Dad's approval more than Sam, because Sam has Dean as a mentor figure as well as his Dad, if that makes sense?
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Date: 2006-01-27 08:07 pm (UTC)That's another thing that gets me about the two of them. They have both had these brief glimmers of a normal life, these short four-year spans where everything was just normal and they could just put aside the weirdness that's out there like everybody else.
The difference comes in that Dean's four years of normal were his first four years, while Sam's were the last four years. Dean had normal, and he had it ripped away from him by the death of Mary. Like he says in "Wendigo", he's very much about making sure that if he can't have normal, then he can make sure other families do.
Meanwhile, you've got Sam, who never got to have normal. Normal to him was something exotic, something he wanted, not something he wanted for others. That's why he can so easily pick up his stuff and leave for college, while Dean couldn't do that. He might want to somewhere in his mind, the same way that in some ways Sam does want to fight evil, but he doesn't. That whole "I've got you, Sammy" is a metaphor for their whole lives, in that Dean's always got his back and Sam takes it for granted that he'll do it.
And the difference between the ways they both react to John is something I so identify with. I used to go through hell and back to get approval from my parents, while my brother doesn't give a damn about whether or not he gets my parents's approval on anything.
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Date: 2006-01-27 08:16 pm (UTC)*nods* I think the reason Sam could leave the way he did is because Dean has his back. The other thing (that I actually wrote in one of my stories) is that Sam was *fourteen* when Dean would have left for college. I just can't see Dean leaving Sam at that point, whereas Dean was twenty-two when Sam left.
And the difference between the ways they both react to John is something I so identify with. I used to go through hell and back to get approval from my parents, while my brother doesn't give a damn about whether or not he gets my parents's approval on anything.
Yes! I had a conversation with my brother about this once, because he was like, "Didn't you ever wish dad would have blahblahblah whatever." and I was like, "Well, yeah, that would have been nice, but it didn't ever affect me that much, because I had you there." And I definitely think that there is something of that between Sam and Dean.
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Date: 2006-01-27 08:44 pm (UTC)The big problems came up in school. I was a big, geeky, shining star, and my brother had trouble reading, so I would get awards and join clubs and Bro would... play video games. He thought Mom and Dad loved me more because I *did* stuff; it's not true, they loved us both equally, but I got on better with Dad as we were both geeky and Bro refused to play along. He thought he was stupid. He told Mom that since my (private) college education was so expensive, he should go to a state school because he "wouldn't do as well as Sid, and I wouldn't want to waste your money." But the really heartbreaking thing is that I think he *still* believes Mom and Dad like me best and doesn't resent me for it, or has gotten very good about hiding it.
He's got this bizarre thing about not being good enough to try. It makes me insane.
*hugs him*
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Date: 2006-01-27 08:53 pm (UTC)I'm the middle child and I'm more a Sam girl. I guess it's just because I understand what it's like for people to overprotect you, to want to get out from under the strong hold sometimes, but to still need to lean on them at times.
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Date: 2006-01-27 09:22 pm (UTC)And my sister totally is the baby. While I love her to death (and she's my best friend), she is so used to having people do things for her. And so used to getting whatever she needs. And like you said, it's not a bad thing because I mean, I've always just done the stuff for her.
So I definitely relate to Dean most. Not just because of the older sibling thing, but because of the using jokes to cover up all the pains and worries things as well. And like you, I *always* side with Dean in any fight. Just like when I hear stories from my friends, if I know they're the big sister/brother, I totally just side with them and say, "baby sisters/brothers, man..."
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Date: 2006-01-27 10:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-27 10:17 pm (UTC)i mean, these are the people who have seen me my whole life, and the people who can relate to the bizarre things my parents do.
on a related (hah!) note, i think the age difference between the older and the younger siblings affects in a huge way how they interact. i don't think i've ever fought with my sister, who is eighteen years older than me, but i definitely identify her as my sister and equal (which probably has more to do with her being awesome than me being equal XD), whereas, again, my brother is a year and a half older and we would totally get on each other's nerves.
wow, i really don't know where i'm going with this, since i can't compare it to supernatural. but basically: i know what you mean, about identifying with one sibling or the other, and how that colors your views of a character. one of the reasons i love rodney from stargate atlantis is because he's an older brother, and i'm pre-disposed to enjoy older brother characters because i love mine so much.
anyway. i'll stop now. and go over, here, yeah. ^^;
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Date: 2006-01-28 12:29 am (UTC)The sibling relationship between the two of them is something that I'm aware of as far as storytelling and character building devices go, but I fail to empathize with it in any real way. I'm a middle child, bookended by a sister and a brother who are only as far apart as biologically necessary (my poor, poor mother). There are other factors about the weirdness of my childhood that probably contribute but it would be interesting to see if other middle children didn't relate specifically to the older/younger relationship.
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Date: 2006-01-28 01:39 am (UTC)I am both an older sibling and a younger one so I have a weird perspective on this.
But first? I want to put on a disclaimer that explains that I've only seen three episodes and most of what I know about this show and The Boys comes from fandom, so I may be horribly wrong about everything.
I'm gonna tackle the "spolied" issue and start by taking Dean's side looking at Sam. I can easily feel that... resentment. Dean doesn't want to resent him because he knows that Sammy's The Baby and that besides that he really doesn't actually ask for a lot, it's just the fact that all he has to do is ask and he gets it. Dean probably knows that if he asked for anything he would've gotten it too but he probably couldn't bring himself to ask because...
Sam's his little brother and that would feel like taking something away from him. And you know Dean spoiled him rotten too, he totally gave Sammy half of his candy bar even after Sammy ate his. I think that pisses Dean off a bit because he kinda thinks Sam's being ungreatful and feels like Sam maybe even looks down on him for not being "normal" or not wanting to be.
Sam has only known the life he grew up in and therefor he never really liked it because he didn't have a choice, kinda like some kids who are forced to go to chruch a lot growing up. Dean... it's not that he likes it but it's... One of the first things he remembers is protecting his baby brother. And so his brain cannot begin to comprehend how "Sammy" could know what kind of things are out there and what they do to innocent people and then just... turn his back on protecting them.
Dean is Batman. Something horrible happened to him when he was little and he just does not understand how other people can have things like that happen and not do something about it. Sammy... Is Spider-Man. He doesn't really want people to get hurt but he resents having to be the one to do it. All he wants is to be normal like everyone else in the world and he doesn't think it's fair that he has to do this. He never even got a choice and that pisses him off. And I think Mama!Winchester had a lot to do with this too because Dean remembers her and Sam doesn't. Dean remembers her and so her not being there probably hurt him in a completely different way then it does Sam. Sam misses her but in a different way.
What it seems to come down to is that Dean misses his Mom's hugs and Sam mourns never being hugged by her. Sam resents Dean in that respect because Dean got to have a "normal" Mom and Dad and got to go to kindergarden and only worry about things like a normal kid, Sammy never got that and he's angry about it. He doesn't understand why Dean doesn't miss being like everyone else.
Huh. That ended up somewhere completely different from where it started...
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Date: 2006-01-28 02:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-28 02:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-28 03:18 am (UTC)Anyway, in relation to Sam and Dean... I have to say that I've never looked at Sam and gone "ew" because he's like my brother. I have siblingcest OTPs in other fandoms and never had problems there either - it just doesn't register like that to me, for some reason. Sam's annoyed me because I want to shake him and say, "Dude, just stop and try and see things from Dean's point of view," but nothing more than that, and Dean's made me want to do the same thing on more than one ocassion.
So I think that my relationship with my brother has given me insight on both of them (which my girlfriend doesn't have in the same way, from the discussions we've had, because she's an only child), but, even if Dean and Sam are hugely like me and my brother in a number of ways, I don't have any problem separating them from us when I watch them.
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Date: 2006-01-28 04:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-01-28 11:52 pm (UTC)I have to go squirrel away thinky thoughts for the Dean/Not!Layla fic that I'm planning now.