It's not a pet peeve. That sounds worse than it is.

[apocalypsos]

I get where it's coming from. I just think that Sam needs to learn how to SAY WHAT HE MEANS.

Let me explain. It's the fandom's attitude regarding the phone call in "Faith" and John's non-reaction to it. Like, I said, I get where it's coming from, BUT --

This is what Sam says on the phone. (As boosted from the TWoP recap.)

"Hey, Dad, it's Sam. You probably won't get this, but, ah. It's Dean. He's sick and, uh, doctors say there's nothing they can do, um, but, ah, they don't know the things we do, right? Um, so don't worry, cuz I'm-a gonna do whatever it takes to get him better."

At no time does Sam really say Dean is dying. He says he's sick and that there's nothing the doctors can do. Which, okay, if you're a normal person, you think, "OMG HE'S DYING!", but when you're a Winchester and you follow that up with, "they don't know the things we do," it kind of implies that it's supernatural in nature. And then Sam's telling him not to worry (even if he sounds a little iffy about the prospect) and that he can handle it.

On one hand, it would have been nice for John to contact them to make sure Dean was okay. On the other hand, Sam doesn't make a hard enough case for John to understand the extent of Dean's injuries, implies that the cause isn't something your average doctor can handle (like, say, an exorcism or something) and then says he can deal with it.

Assuming that's the only phone call regarding the situation that John got, what's he supposed to think? Sam didn't call him every hour on the hour bitching at him to get to the hospital to see his oldest son before he passes away. Sam didn't leave him a thousand messages about the serious nature of Dean's injuries. Sam called him once, and somehow managed to avoid the word "dying" like he was dancing around a landmine. (Which he probably was more for himself than for John -- God knows if I were talking about my brother and dying in the same sentence, I wouldn't be able to hold it together.)

Comments

[tabaqui]

You know....in retrospect i think that that phone call *was* pretty damn ambiguous. Which makes it a teensy bit unfair later when Dean says 'you didn't come when i was dying!'.

It would have been fun to see Papa say 'Dying?!' and give Sam the Big Hairy Eyeball and Sam be all 'Oh, uh, yeah, well, I didn't want you to worry but...if you were a normal dad you would have picked up on the worry and despair in my voice!!'

And then Dean and Papa both smack Sam up-side the head. *ahem*

But, yeah. He was kinda dodgey and really, at that point, i think John had a lot of faith in what his boys could do and that they weren't *probably weren't* facing anything they couldn't handle.

*la*

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sam even realized he DIDN'T say Dean was dying. Obviously he told Dean he'd called John as said as much, and I don't think he lied as much misremembered. I'll bet if Sam were confronted with what he'd actually said, he'd say, "... oh. I thought I'd been clearer."

I think that might have been why John immediately backed down from the argument at that moment, though, rather than start an entirely new one over "DYING?!".

[tabaqui]

Oh, yeah, totally unconscious on his part. And yeah - i think John was on info overload at that point *plus* Dean was all in his face, so...
He didn't stand a chance. HEh.

[budclare.livejournal.com]

And who knows when John even got the message. Maybe for one reason or another he didn't get to check it for a couple days, and by then they'd left another message saying that Dean was fine.

But you're right. John really isn't the most perceptive person ever, so he probably just assumed that if it were really bad, Sam would be panicking. The fact that Sam might be in denial would likely never cross his mind.

[fadagaski.livejournal.com]

Good point. Though I like to think that, with Sam calling every person in the journal, word would have got back to John eventually. *is happy in dreamland*

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

True, but if he was hearing from others about it, he probably would have heard about the faith healer. I can see him being like Sam about the catch-22 involved, too -- whatever it takes to save Dean.

[casapazzo.livejournal.com]

There's actually a pretty decent fic out there with exactly that plot - 15 Voicemails.

[fadagaski.livejournal.com]

Heh. That's my new canon. I have no brain, so I can't think of these details myself. :D

[bastian1967.livejournal.com]

Sam and John have never had the best relationship, maybe Sam thought that his father would care less if Dean died or not. Although the phone call to his father was made after he had already heard about a possible cure from one of John's contacts.

[mylenn.livejournal.com]

See, the way I had figured it, was that ANY phone call to daddy would be seen as serious-like-whoa and should be acted upon. I mean, Sam hasn't even SEEN his Dad is a long time by this episode, right? (If I'm wrong, sorry, don't have my eps with me). So I thought that ANY call coming from SAM in particular would show Dad that it was serious. I don't know.

Although, now that I see the transcript, I'm all conflicted.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Also, if John wanted to be nearby, ala Home, just in case, which seems more his MO, Sam didn't bother to give him a location. Or cordinates. Or anything, but a message that sounded like Sam was a little distressed, but had it well in hand.

But that's jus my thoughts. Also, I like the idea that John would think from the way he was talking that it was supernatural in nature.

[medie]

Didn't he also neglect to mention where they were? Kinda hard to rush to your son's bedside when you don't have a clue where the hell the bed is, specially when said son doesn't *STAY* in the bed.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Sam should just never be allowed to leave phone messages EVER.

I get the impression it was less of a "Dean's dying! Come soon!" phone call as it was a "You might hear some troublesome things from your contacts about Dean's health, but not to worry! I have it under control!" kind of call. More of a completely different kind of desperation.

[ceares.livejournal.com]

Sorry-here from SPN newsletter. Admittedly Sam wasn't very clear about the situation, but John certainly never called back to check on them. Even a voicemail from one of his phone booths would have been something.

I don't think impending death is the only circumstance which qualifies for concern for his children. I know he raised them to be tough, but still the fact that Sam called him should have told him that maybe he should be worried. It's not like they come whining to him about a hang nail or anything.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

True, but Sam's phone call isn't so much an alert as a shutdown. It's not, "Dean's dying, come soon!", it's, "You might hear some bad things about Dean but I've got this well under control, you don't have to come." And let's face it -- the last time the two of them spoke to each other, it was a bitter argument as Sam was walking out the door. I've been in the same situation with my father, and if it was anything like that, I'll bet they were both majorly reluctant to speak to one another, regardless of any sort of emergency.

The way

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Yeah but the very fact that Sam called him and Dean didn't ought to have been enough. Given what Sam said and the fact that it was SAM saying it, that would have set alarm bells off left and right, even without the exact words "dying" in it--because 'dying' would be pretty much the only thing that would let Sam call John in any way shape or form leaving a message like that. John SHOULD have called, even on the outside chance he didn't get the message until 2 weeks later, to at least make sure both his sons were still breathing--there's is no reasonable excuse he didn't, imo, some slight ambiguity in the message or not.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Yes, but that's IF John had his cell phone. He called them from "Asylum" from a pay phone. Who owns a cell phone and doesn't use it if they have it?

The problem is that we have no clue what John was doing when he was gone. We don't know if he could even get to a phone during that time. Considering that he doesn't even show up until "Shadow" -- and by then it's because of the demon -- I'm suspicious. Hell, I'm especially suspicious because of Dean's comment about John sneaking off to see Sam at Stanford. If he was doing that then, I highly doubt he's not watching out for them now without them even realizing it.

Did he call? No. Is he the type of guy who would call? No. Does that mean he didn't give a damn? No. There are factors we know nothing about in this situation. Until then, it's premature to jump down John's throat.

[ceares.livejournal.com]

I'll bet they were both majorly reluctant to speak to one another, regardless of any sort of emergency. Maybe so, but he didn't have to speak to Sam at all.

He could have simply called and left a message on Dean's phone. Hell he could have called one of the people he was actually in contact with-Missouri for instance and had one of them call and check.

And actually it's worse, not better if he let issues with Sam keep him from checking on Dean.

Like I said, dying isn't the point. Dean could have been blinded, crippled or mentally incapacitated(all things a doctor wouldn't necessarily be able to do anything about).

It's pretty incomprehensible to me that he loves he children, which I do believe, claims he can't bear to see them die, but never actually checks on them-that didn't protect them, look at how close Meg got to Sam.

No the fact that he doesn't contact them when they need him, but does show up when they call him about the demon is either suck ass parenting or bad writing.

I put it down to bad writing-it would have made much more sense if we found out at some point that he'd been keeping an eye on them some way, through friends or a hunting network.

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

Except... Well, it's also made clear that Sam talked to just about everyone else, that he went to everyone they'd ever had contact with and asked for help, and I think it's at least strongly implied that others just heard through the grapevine and contacted them, people that Sam was surprised would. And we also know John was in contact with people in the community -well, with Missouri, at least- and probably others.

In conclusion, Sam's call was ambiguous though he probably didn't mean it to be (and given that he was deep in denial about the possibility of Dean dying anyway), but really, there's no way John shouldn't have known, if not at the time, then after.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Assuming the person they got the information from didn't immediately turn around and call John. And if he did, then he probably gave John the same information that he gave the boys. In that case, it would be a horrible idea to call them. Dean would listen if John ordered them to go, but Sam would immediately put up resistance. He might even have insisted they go after John instead. If John knew that the faith healer was legit (in a way) and that it was the only way to keep Dean alive, calling the boys would be a distraction and might even keep them from going.

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

Dean would listen if John ordered them to go, but Sam would immediately put up resistance. He might even have insisted they go after John instead.

I'm sorry, but I can't see that at all. Sam, we've seen him auto-obey his dad in life-or-death situations. What he objects to is being given arbitary orders without explanation. "Hey, go and see this faith healer." = exactly the sort of order Sam would follow. Sam objects, I think, mostly to being kept ignorant, which John does a lot. He almost never explains himself, and Sam is research boy, Sam needs knowledge, proof, reasons. Dean, especially with family, works from faith.*


Now me, I favour the idea that John just didn't get the message until after it was all sorted out (which did happen pretty quickly), and makes his lack of contact... well, still bad on a human level (let alone a familial one), but not as criminally awful and negligent as it might be otherwise.


And the idea that Sam would risk Dean's life like that... it's not like splitting up in Scarecrow, where Sam knew that Dean was an unlikely target for a very specific killing thing. Dean had a month, if that, and Sam was desparate for

And then their dad not only never mentions it, never follows up on it, never even calls, he has the temerity to ask what the boys didn't tell him about Sam's visions. Really, the boys have no reason to believe their father would care enough to do anything about it. Just faith and instinct, which would be sorely stretched.

*The secret to any relationship is to find someone who is fucked up in compatible ways. Everyone's bent, it's just a matter of finding someone whose extra edges only get you where you're nicely callused or pre-grooved, and who already has numb scar-tissue where you might hurt them.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of it is the snowball effect. He didn't call immediately, presumably because he was indisposed. When he did get the message, it was too late to call about it without looking like a dick. So he told himself he'd do it tomorrow when he worked up the nerve for the fight that was sure to occur, and just kept telling himself that he'd talk to Dean about it tomorrow until Dean was standing RIGHT THERE giving him shit about it. Yeah, it's over something serious, but that probably just made the phone call that much harder to make.

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see it happening just like that

I have a lot of sympathy for Sam in Faith. He was in such denial about the whole thing.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I can see it happening like that mostly because I'm having the same problem with my synopsis. The more I tell myself I'll work on it tomorrow, the worse it gets to actually DO it.

[astri13.livejournal.com]

Hi, found this via the NL.

While I thought from the way Sam said it, it made clear that a)Dean was dying and b)Sam was in a denial-phase of "but I`m gonna fix it", I had more of a problem with the utter non-acknowledgment we got of it later.

No throwaway line in the next episodes, nothing when they met in Shadow and the utmost "Whatever"-shrug in Salvation. Where incidently John didn`t look at all like the dying thing was new to him. More like it was yesterday`s buisness. And not important one at that.

Now that, really bothered me.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Well, they didn't really have much time to do anything in "Shadow". They only saw each other for about ten minutes, which didn't leave much time for starting arguments, much less even remembering that he didn't call.

And then there's the fact that when it comes to the boys, Sam might have a problem with it, but from Dean's past reactions he'd probably tell Sam to shut it and that Dad has his reasons. Considering he's the one that was dying, that's within his rights, whether or not he's really bothered by it.

And yeah, when confronted with it, John didn't apologize. But when does this family EVER apologize? Hell, when does anybody in this family ever say what they should? Most of the reason they keep exploding at one another is because none of them say exactly what they should. They bottle up their emotions and never say a damn thing that would make their lives so much easier. Tell your father you want to go to college, and listen to said argument with rationalization and understanding? No, hide it until you're fully prepared to "walk out that door and never come back," and blow up and kick the offender out. They're three guys who have bad tempers and never say what they mean. If John had apologized, it would have been a freaking miracle. After Dean confronted him, though, he told him he was right, a miracle in and of itself.

Plus, there's the question of if John even HAD his phone at the time. When he called them at the end of "Asylum", he did so from a pay phone. Who has a cell phone and decides to use a pay phone instead? It's not like he was trying to avoid being bugged or traced or something, so where the hell was his phone?

[astri13.livejournal.com]

But when does this family EVER apologize?

I thought the boys have gotten way better with it. Dean in Scarecrow, Sam in Something Wicked.

It`s not that I don`t think John doesn`t care about his sons. He obviously does.
But otoh I couldn`t blame Sam or Dean for not being so sure of it. Or at least how much of a priority they are to him.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Well, apologize to John, I should say.

And they both think the other one is more important to Dad, which I think makes them just like every other set of siblings on the planet. And they're all wrong. ;)

[astri13.livejournal.com]

Well, apologize to John, I should say.

Dean did in Shadow, when he apologized for almost leading him into a trap. :)

As far as their big Stanford fight went, both John and Sam would maybe have reason to apologize, though John more since he kicked his son out. They both squirmed around the issue, so I`d say level playing field.

Apart from that I don`t think they had any cause to apologize to him IMO.

And they both think the other one is more important to Dad, which I think makes them just like every other set of siblings on the planet.

I agree with them thinking the other is more treasured/favored by Dad but I meant on their own. How much does Dean think John values him? The Faith thing wouldn`t exactly boost his confidence. Strictly speaking from his perspective here, I can`t blame him for thinking he is just not important enough to warrant a call.
And that`s truly sad because I in no way believe that would be John`s intention and he`d be horrified if he knew.

I have long since said that this family would benefit heavily from telepathy.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I have long since said that this family would benefit heavily from telepathy.

*snickers* Or empathic abilities. Either one would work. :)

[iseult-variante.livejournal.com]

Hrm. You're totally right - Oh SAM. (As you say, if I'd had to leave that message about my brother, the word dying would not have been involved. And I'm the older sib - I cannot imagine Dean leaving that message, OH GOD.)

The other commenters raise some interesting points... I think, though, that you could argue that John on some level understood what Sam was not saying. These Winchesters seem to communicate largely without really SAYING anything, which doesn't always work sure, but I think they get it most of the time. Anyway, the message Sam left allowed John to rationalize staying away ("Sam is taking care of it. Sam WILL take care of it."), which he believed to be the safest course of action for his boys. That's why, imo, he isn't surprised by the "When I was DYING." - he did know that, but hadn't really acknowledged it, which also fits with the way that conversation goes, I think - backing down because yes, Dean was DYING, and hey, let's talk about something else! I think John has serious issues with his children's mortality. Which, heh - John? Issues? NO WAY!

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Honestly. I dislike the implication that John doesn't give a shit that Dean was dying. John ALWAYS gives a shit. Hell, they might not talk about things like they should, but all three Winchesters have VERY strong emotions. This is why you end up with John chasing the demon who killed his wife for twenty years and he and Sam having an argument that leads to Sam not speaking to any of them for four years.

There should be a definition in the dictionary for Winchester: Someone who feels deeply but will shoot you in the face if you try to get him to mention it. They're action guys, not words guys.

[iseult-variante.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply that John didn't care that Dean was dying, I just think it's... I don't know. Simplistic? Too easy? To say that he didn't know, even with Sam's message being as vague as it was. As you say, they're action guys, not words guys, and the fact that Sam was calling should have indicated that it was a pretty big deal.

So I think that John cared very much that Dean was unwell/hurt/dying/whatever he got out of Sam's message. I mean, every time we seem him before Shadow, he is clearly hurting from not seeing his boys. But caring does not necessarily equal showing up, or calling back, unfortunately, for whatever reason. And so I think that staying away then was probably the hardest thing, and to make it easier, to make it hurt less, he may have tried to stick to the surface of Sam's message. I don't think less of him, for that - any person faced with that situation (son in desperate need/can't go to him) would HAVE to try reconcile it the least painful way possible.

(Your definition of Winchester is so so true. Oh, Winchesters!)

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

The thing about John that gets to me is that I think he realizes that his being around sometimes just makes things worse. And if Dean is dying, how much worse can he make it? Assuming that he did get the message quickly -- which is unlikely, considering -- he claims his hunt has brought him onto the trail of the demon, and he has to know that the demon has something it wants from Sam. In which case, contacting the boys could put them in even more danger, and with Dean dying, it might be better to not go anywhere near them, including phone calls.

There's also the snowball effect to consider. I mean, he didn't make a difficult phone call immediately, so he tells himself, "I'll do it tomorrow, when I can handle the argument that's sure to follow," and he keeps telling himself that over and over and OVER again, until suddenly, it's Dean standing in front of him saying, "Sam called you when I was dying!"

[iseult-variante.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with all of that. Yes. If I were John, and I did get that call from Sam, I would probably go do something reckless, with the specific point of keeping the demon from looking anywhere near my boys while they're most vulnerable.

And, yes, the lack of follow-up call doesn't bother me in the slightest - as you say, avoidant coping. I mean, he would have heard that they were ok, calling after the fact would just have been put off.

(... and you raised a different issue - does John know that that this is All About Sam? He's not stupid, so he probably figured it out, based on the whole tracking of the other families, thing, but he seemed surprised and pissed, which to me reads as freaked out, by the mention of the visions. *ponders* Oh, John Winchester, why are you so interesting? Why don't we have more canon on you so that our spec can be more grounded? WHY?)