Yeah, 'cause last night didn't tire me out enough.

[apocalypsos]

Dear Supernatural fandom writing their demands and complaints to Kripke and company regarding The Spoilers for next season,

*smacks you upside the head*

Are you RETARDED?!

Sincerely,

Me

P.S. No, seriously, are you?

Look, Sam and Dean and their brotherly relationship and this little road trip cannot be the entire focus of this show for the rest of the series. It can't. I adore the brotherly relationship, but even I know you can't center your show around two characters for the entire run. And it's not like they're going to take over the whole damn show. It is now the Super Squeaky Butt-Kicking Girls Show YAY! (They can schedule it right after the Winx Club! *eye roll*)

Freaking out because of two female characters on more than one episode? I'm not ready to call the reaction misogyny because we all saw how unevenly they wrote Jo at first and now there's this crap line about "a better hunter than Dean and Sam," which ... if she is or if she isn't, it still reeks of Mary Sue and it always seems to be our lousy first impressions with these female characters that gets the writers in hot water. And I'd really like them to explain to me how someone the same age as both Winchesters, who've been trained since birth and early childhood, one of whom is extremely intelligent and the other of whom has been hunting non-stop practically his entire damn life, is better than them. No, really, I'd like to know. Now, John being a better hunter, I buy. Where does some character the same age as them get off? It doesn't make any sense to me, BUT NOT BECAUSE SHE'S A CHICK. There'd better be a good fucking explanation for that one (although I'm starting to think her managing to keep her ass off the FBI Ten Most Wanted List might be enough, since it sounds cool to be on it but Jesus Christmas, boys), but other than that, I have absolutely no problems seeing these characters in action.

I'm hoping the writers learned their lessons from Jo. They planned for her to be a love interest, they tried her out, she didn't work. (I swear it was like I said -- they wrote her as far too naive for her age and she needed to go out from under her mother's roof if she would grow at all as a person and a hunter. She left, she got more interesting. See? Good writers.)

HOWEVER.

Don't demand that the writers steer the plotlines the way you want them. You know that guy at every convention who goes up to authors and show creators and whatnot and wants to tell them his ideas and what the author/show creator did wrong and what he thinks they should do and oh, my fucking god DON'T BE THAT GUY.

*

Ahem. It's possible that I did not need to go from two days with four hours of sleep apiece, to coming home today to some warning that some chick was plagiarizing my old X-Men stories (she might have already deleted them, though, the idiot) to this. *sigh*

Comments

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't see how more female characters on Supernatural could be a bad thing, overall. And I completely agree about Jo - she's a great character, but she's not at a stage where she would be a credible love interest for more than a single episode, because she can't yet look after herself, and I would be intensely surprised, after Jess, if either Winchester boy got involved with someone who wasn't as capable as they are.

[the-oscar-cat.livejournal.com]

I would say 'word' but really i'm too white and middle class to pull it off.

sadly - i'm not posh enough to say 'good show!'

[lemmypie.livejournal.com]

Dude, really there are letters being written? *slaps forehead*

I was upset about it, and now. I'm ok with it. The main characters aren't changing. I like the fact they are trying to expand the world the boys live in. I just wish whoever writes the descriptions did a better job.
They have to know that throwing out words like, "better hunters than Sam and Dean" that's the kind of wording that just stirs up shit.

I think the show runners are just bored and threw that stuff out there to watch the fur fly.

[vivien]

Wow...

I mean, there need to be more female characters, period, because lookit Ellen! Missouri! COOL FEMALE CHARACTERS WE NEED MORE OF!

If these two new chicas are younger and attractive to the boys while still kicking ass, then I have no qualms whatsoever.

Sigh. Fandom is a strange place.

[katbcoll.livejournal.com]

*raises hand* Gonna ask this here because honestly? I feel safer here.
Wasn't this kinda like the rumor going around last year? Yes, it ended up being Jo and her momma but still. It just sounds like the same stuff.

Also, read somewhere else that the info came from the CW office, not Kripke's. So yeah, really not putting much stock in it. Beyond that? Gotta agree with everything you said.

You know, I am not surprised to hear about the stolen stories. Just sorry to hear about it.

[minim_calibre]

The information I read implied that what some information has said as "better" meant more ruthless. Like a girl Gordon!

GIRLS! GIRLS! GIRLS!!!

I like the idea. Can you tell? Okay, I am POSSIBLY over invested in notions my head has spun (like ones that pick up from information on BUaBS, which would also provide a smoooooooooooooth explanation for any above and beyond hunter skill, plus built in Angst and Tension, and I'll stop now, because I'm trying NOT to have absurdly awesome pulled from thin air spec notions that will never come to pass, but damn, it'd be cool).

Dear Idiots With Stamps,

No, seriously. DON'T BE THAT GUY.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

So yeah, really not putting much stock in it.

Jim Beaver aka Bobby confirmed it too.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

People are freaking sending letters? *facepalm* Whatever. I'm willing to give these new female characters a chance, at least. I'm not wild about them until we see how well they're executed, but new characters? Female characters? Hey, bring 'em on.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't have any problem with that, if they weren't listed as the show's regulars. That's like inviting disaster. Why not introduce them, see if the fans like them, and then make them series regulars. Jumping in like that, it's obvious that fans will be miffed.

If they were only recurring characters - even if they were in every other episode like Bobby - I would look forward to them because they might turn up interesting. But the whole show has always been "two guys in a muscle car", not "two guys and two girls etc.".

And also, I wouldn't mind them even being regulars... if it was Kripke's idea and not an order from the higher-ups which it is. If it was Kripke's idea, there might be some grand plan behind it. This way, it reminds me way too much of the whole disaster with female characters in The Sentinel. The UPN tried to force the issue there too...

[kelex.livejournal.com]

Well, I went to Kryptonsite (that's a Smallville site) and their casting call for a "regular" character for next season said "7/13", which would make it about every other episode, because 7 is just about half of a 13-ep half season, and 13 is just about half (a little over, I think) of a full 22-ep run. So that makes me feel better about it knowing that there's a chance they won't be shoehorned in every episode.

[kelex.livejournal.com]

You know, the only part of this thing that I can buy is the fact that the girls (or one of them, anyway) is a better hunter than Dean. Because Dean (the Winchesters) were trained the Winchester way, which means, you run solo. I think, in a way, that was the one thing the Roadhouse was good for last season, and that was introducing Dean and Sam to the fact that there's a whole world of people out there who know more than they do about this just because they are in the community. When you're on the outside looking in, you're never going to be the best, because the people inside the community have advantages of you of information sharing and things like that. pre-Roadhouse, Sam and Dean had like, three sources of information. Internet, John's journal, and John's friends (mostly Caleb and Pastor Jim).

At least, that's the path I'm hoping they take, because that's the only one that could work for me.

[squee1123.livejournal.com]

...there's a letter writing campaign starting about the leaked spoilers? now...i couldnt resist reading them when they came out so I heard about it and really doesnt seem like that big of a deal.

Heh. I love how I always find out about this kinda thing through people on my flist scolding people on their flist about being so crazycakes.

[squee1123.livejournal.com]

like ones that pick up from information on BUaBS, which would also provide a smoooooooooooooth explanation for any above and beyond hunter skill, plus built in Angst and Tension,

*arm flail!* OMG I had forgotten about that possibility! That WOULD be really cool! That should totally be the history of one of them.

EYEROLL

[nuptse.livejournal.com]

Seriously? Please to be having common sense time now? This sort of thing makes me want to take people behind the shed to have a little talk about their entitlement issues. If anything, it only gives us new characters to become demon/zombie/headless horseman fodder. Are they really that afraid that the guys will catch girl cooties? Jeez- have some faith in the writers. It's what they get paid the big bucks.

They're going to do what they need to do in order to improve ratings because they're not in this to be able to stand around and look at the pretty all day. *head desk*

[cidercupcakes.livejournal.com]

You are great.

My reaction was 'dude, they're going to have female characters? Maybe I'll start watching now!'

[katikat.livejournal.com]

Exactly! *beams* I mean, I wouldn't mind some arcs with these girls, like there are arcs with Bobby. Because the Winchesters really need someone on their side. But I have an aversion to a backseat snarky love-interest - which I hope won't happen.

I just don't understand the need to introduce new characters. Why not use some old ones that fans liked? Sarah or Kathleen. Strong, self-confident women who didn't feel the need to prove themselves by ridiculing men through snarky comments and making them feel like little boys - the worst trait of today's female characters :(

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping that she is a better hunter thanks to her ruthlessness. You can kill many more monsters when you are not worried about the consequences. But when you feel sorry for the people possessed, you are much more careful with them and reluctant to hurt them.

[medie]

It's funny, all SPN fandom is flipping out. All my acquaintances outside the fandom?

"God, I'd love to see that show get more female characters in it, I'd watch it more"

Gotta love perspective.

(This icon is getting SO much work right now)

[medie]

Seriously. A postcard campaign, they have a slogan and everything.

It's...Huh.

[medie]

*nods* god yes. Sam & Dean, I love 'em but their father kept them very isolated from the world. It would be VERY easy for another hunter to be better than them based on the fact that they know who to call for what. If John didn't introduce the boys to them, then Sam & Dean don't even know they exist. Shit, John neglected to mention that vampires are little more than folklore and that? Would be something worth mentioning.

*fume* The more I think about fandom's reaction on this? The more irritated I get.

[mona1347.livejournal.com]

*raises hand*

Not that I think this "spoiler" counts as more than a "vague rumor" at this point but...

I personally am hoping that "better" is "better" in the way that on-the-bleeding-edge-of-sanity, homicidal S3 Faith was a "better slayer" than Buffy. Ruthless cruelty is sometimes, well, more efficient.

But that's just me. I think, particularly if Sera Gamble is HEAVILY involved in the writing of these women, that this could be COMPLETELY AWESOME. Mostly because of the part most spoiler-whiners are not addressing..."The first one is described as a beautiful, funny and confident mercenary who lacks a conscience, and the other is an enigmatic demon hunter who is sexy, brutal and ruthless." [emphasis mine]

I MEAN. *FLAPPY HANDS* COME ON! HOTASS, BADASS FEMALE VERSIONS OF GORDON?! I AM SO BEHIND THAT.

[katbcoll.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the extra info. Regardless of the paragraph below (I read what I wrote and wow, I apologize for sounding bitchy), I actually do appreciate it. I'm just kinda hot and tired (and it's only 10 am).

Okay, I hadn't read that interview yet. Still, I'll wait to react until I actually see the eps next year. I just can't really be arsed to freak out about a tv show that much. Even my favorite one. I got way too much RL shit on my plate.

[lavenderfrost.livejournal.com]

I'll admit that I hadn't noticed that part of the spoiler and I was worried, (not to the point of boycotting and letter-writing, but still...concerned) but if they do the Faith/Gordon-type? I could maybe get behind that.

My main concern was that here come these perfect huntresses who naturally work unbelievably well with Sam and Dean and become their best friends EVEREVEREVER and naturally, they're the only ones who UNDERSTAND the Winchesters, so why WOULDN'T they fall in love? ^^;;

[tabaqui]

Letter campaignes and such. Ooh, oh my.
I only know what dribs and drabs i've stumbled across by accident - i didn't *want* to be spoiled for anything, damnit!!

So long as they don't Mary-Sue them, i'm for it. Jo sucked at first 'cause it was like 'ooh, here Dean, have a girl, you'll like her, we made her *just for you!!* shove shove' and that sucked. But Jo as competent hunter and Jo on her own, doing her thing - that i liked.

So please the gods these new 'girls' *lets hope 'women'* aren't squeaky and flaily and wearing belly shirts and high heels and lots of makeup. I'd love to see a couple of Ellen-like hunters or something along the lines of Sarah Conner, omgyes!! That would be awesome. Tough chicks who can handle the job and themselves and hook up with the boys because the boys have skills or info they need, or something like that. Not just 'oh, look, finally we have romance!!'. That would be boring.

*crosses everything*
*trusts the writers*
*mostly*

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if it turns out like The Sentinel, or the last season of Highlander (God forbid), I'm going to be pissed. I'm willing to give them a chance, though, at least until I see them in action.

[amalthia]

I like the idea of two female hunters showing up in the series a lot. I don't mind if they are sisters, lovers, or just friends hunting together. I'm just hoping none of those characters turn into a Lana Lang for SPN. (which I highly doubt will happen because the guys in charge seem pretty good at seeing what's working and what's not)

I loved all the female guest actresses they've had on the show, I see no reason to start doubting the casting process now.

(um also I figured this would be a great way to introduce women for foursome sex scenes in fics without needing OFCs)

[amalthia]

I loved Faith more when she went "evil" but i liked that she wasn't completely bad too. Just realized it would be beyond awesome if Eliza Dushku is cast.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

See, I see it the opposite way. The Winchester boys are so used to being on their own that they've always had to find their own damn information. Being part of a community has its advantages, but it also has its disadvantage in that you can always just go to the right person and ask them for the information you need rather than find it yourself (See: "I called Ash, and he said ..."), and it's really easy to become lazy that way, or to not know how to find something out because someone else is always doing it for you.

[lavenderfrost.livejournal.com]

I've only ever seen Faith once, and that was one ep of Angel, so I don't know the whole backstory aside from the cliffs-notes version you get talking to fans.

That little bit I saw of her was fine, though. I wasn't crazy about her, but I didn't dislike her. They wrote her well enough that she fit.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

HEE! Thanks. :)

My only reservation is that the writers started a reputation for bad first impressions of female characters with Jo I'd rather they not continue. (Words cannot describe how annoyed I got when this female wannabe hunter who was supposedly a little younger than Sam didn't just pack up a car and leave when her mother told her she didn't want her hunting while she lived under her roof, but instead threw a tantrum and ran away on a hunt with the boys. Smooth.)

The thing that people seem to be gleefully forgetting is that other than Jo's awfully childish beginnings and the horror that was Cassie (urgh), Supernatural has written some fabulous female characters the entire fandom loves. Mary, Jess, Ellen, Missouri, Ava, Sarah, Carmen, and they even managed to make Jo a bit more awesomely mature in her last episode.

SERIOUSLY, COME ON, PEOPLE.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

And seriously, other than Jo's childish beginnings and the horror that was Cassie, have the writers ever really screwed up a female character? They even fixed Jo, for God's sake!

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Dude, my first thought when I read the spoilers was, "Buffy and Faith go on a road trip!"

And if they do something like that, my own hands will NEVER stop flapping.

[medie]

Seriously! They did! (And I would not complain if they brought her back instead. Maybe with Kat from Asylum.) Who cares who suggested that they have more women (not like some of us haven't been asking for that already), Kripke can pull it off!

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD. If they cast Eliza Dushku I would owe Kripke my firstborn child. Seriously.

And then I would laugh at the haters, because who HASN'T wanted to write fic where Dean fucks Faith and/or a reasonable facsimile of her? :)

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

And the best part? MORE HET. \o/

(Not that I don't love gen and slash and Wincest, but I'm always itching to write het but loathe to write an OFC in this fandom with the boys and their nomadic lifestyle.)

[mona1347.livejournal.com]

As someone said on Femmenerd's LJ, we should totally be campaigning not AGAINST this potential development, but instead FOR them to cast Eliza Dushku as one of the hunters. *nodnodnodnodnod*

[medie]

God yes. *nods* I'm a lot more freewheeling about the OFCs but, god yes. Slash, gen, femslash (hehe, rarer than hen's teeth in this fandom!) het, whatever. Some days you want chocolate ice cream, some days you wanna sundae. There are days I *ITCH* for some good het. Hell, I've got half yours printed off so I can grab it in a pinch!

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

YESYESYES. Sam, Dean, the one woman on the planet I'd most like to have sex with ... I'd be rubbing suggestively up against my television screen every week! :)

[mona1347.livejournal.com]

WORD. Eliza STEALS MY STRAIGHT.

Omg. I think my underwear would actually EXPLODE.

[amalthia]

rofl, that would be beyond awesome if they are able to get her in this show. I've had plenty of xover ideas with buffy/spn and Faith is a big part of those. :) But the hard part would be distinguishing Faith from the new character...sigh but yeah that would be really hot if they had a fight, then rough dirty sex and maybe Sam walks in on the end. :)

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

I think they write females very well on this show. They have a huge opportunity to make EVERY girl a damsel in distress, but they DON'T, and I appreciate that.

As for the thing where they're better hunters - I agree with you, they're going to have to give some serious reason for it. HOWEVER, I think it's important that they ARE better hunters, because Sam and Dean don't have time to spend with people who aren't better than them, especially now, when they don't have time PERIOD.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I have this sneaking suspicion that the "better hunters than Sam and Dean" thing is a reaction to just how badly they got reamed for making Jo so inexperienced.

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think the real problem with Jo was that she was inconsistent. The first few times we see her, she's pretty badass - and then in "No Exit," she was beyond amateur to the point where she DID become a damsel in distress. I read something where Alona Tal said that even the writers kept waffling on Jo's experience level.

[tinylegacies.livejournal.com]

I think that's why so many people write SPN crossovers -- because they want strong females.

Look at who people crossover with -- Faith, Chloe, Buffy -- if these characters are going to be like those girls (or even like an S1 Veronica Mars), then they will be awesome.

[squee1123.livejournal.com]

i mean im not a big FAN of the idea but it could work out REALLY cool. so im warming to it, if it even happens.

i definately wouldnt write a postcard though.

of course i didnt write one for Save Supernatural but...

[regala-electra.livejournal.com]

Oh, That Guy. Yeah, That Guy isn't the person anyone should aspire to, you wind up angry and bitter and you're having your groceries rung up and someone says, "Oh, I love those...Mary Sues!-" and you yell at them, cutting them off, "WHAT? I HATE THEM WITH THEIR EVIL, EVIL WAYS!!! Why'd you say MARY SUES!"

Then the person slowly backs away and says, "I just said 'I love those...are they new shoes?' Freak."

Meanwhile, I have learned to stop worrying and embrace the things that make me happy. Supernatural makes me very, very happy. Female characters make me quite happy, especially when they are most enjoyable, played by good actresses.

Also, if Eliza Dushku gets cast, I will die a happy women. I don't just write Faith/Dean cuz they're awesome together, ya know.

[pushingyouaway.livejournal.com]

in my little corner of fandom, i still insist that bobby's got a niece (maybe daughter?) that will eventually mosey on in and be just as good at wielding weapons and such as the boys

i don't think it's a bad thing if all of this hub-bub is really going to happen. they can never take away from samanddean

...i also concur with amothea's parenthesized statement

*gives you cookies*

[medie]

*nods* I'm cautiously optimistic. I mean, yeah, it could suck huge monkey balls but on the other hand, it's Kripke and they haven't made any real MAJOR misteps. (I even give 'em kudos for what they tried with Cassie) when it comes to writing women thus far. So yeah, cautiously optimistic.

But yeah, I definitely wouldn't. I mean, postcard/letter campaigns those you save for something really important. And this? not so important.

Me either. I was fairly confidant it wasn't going anywhere. It plays too well to the target audience CW wants.

[medie]

Oh god yes. When I'm not in the mood for a good OFC fic, I happily fall back on my crossover pairings. Dean/Chloe is probably as close to a OTP as I come (I multiship way too much to really have otps *G*), I fell hard for that pairing in the beginning and still adore it.

And yes, if they base the characters on people like that? It would be made of *WIN*