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apocalypsos-- I'm going to repost what I said yesterday (because I know I warned people who want to avoid mindless squee about Thursday brain and Friday brain with me) about Dean calling Ruby a bitch:
Okay, so here's the thing. I know all the problems this show has with misogyny, and this may be an unpopular opinion (heh, MAY), but I'm okay with Dean dropping a "bitch" every once in a while. Not Sam, just Dean, and sometimes Bobby. It's not the show being misogynist. It's the character being a pig. Which is true. He's a hero, but he's still a pig. He's had barely any female influence in his life other than as sexual partners or villains. Like it or not, he's not going to be in the National Organization for Women. So while I'm not thrilled with him and smack my brother upside the head for the same language, Dean didn't have anybody to smack him upside the head for it (John had a lot of flaws, and being politically incorrect had to be a smidge of that). Sam, on the other hand, was the sensitive one. I have a hard time buying him dropping a "bitch" without a good goddamn reason.
Now, when it comes to violent female deaths ... yeah, that's a writer problem.
It would be completely unrealistic to go through the show without the male characters throwing down an occasional epithet, with the frequency depending on the character. There's a reason we have so many discussions about issues of sexism: because they exist in real life. And they have to exist in fiction, as well, at least from a character standpoint.
There's a big difference between "The writer is a misogynist" and "The character is a misogynist." Look at Mad Men, for heaven's sake. It's sexist as hell, but that's because that's the way it WAS.
I mean, gendered insults are a problem, whether it's women or demons. That said, if neither one of them ever called someone -- woman, man, demon, whatever -- a bitch, I'd be shocked and wouldn't buy it.
It's like the Bitchwatch. My main problem when I did that, in retrospect, wasn't that the insults were gendered (although that's a problem), it was the sudden inexplicable increase in them. That felt like a "misogynist-writer" problem, which is serious, rather than a "misogynist-character" problem, which is a character flaw that, while unappealing, is a sadly normal personal problem that people do have.
Heh. It's so much longer when you compile what I said in the actual post and what I added in comments. ;)
-- I believe Meg will come back. I don't feel like they'd make a point of bringing her back for one how-do-you-do. Will she be in the same actress again? Hell, will she BE in an actress this time? (I have this weird thought that if I were Kripke and had Meg to play with I'd throw her into Bobby. If it weren't for the fact that women don't get enough screentime on that show as it is and it's a waste of an actress, that is.) But I don't think they'd bring her back just to throw her away in the premiere.
-- On one hand, I'm horribly saddened that Bobby may never walk again. On the face of it.
Here's the thing. This is Bobby we're talking about. Even if he can't walk, he's STILL going to be kickass. Dean would trick out his wheelchair like WHOA, and he'd be just as tough as he is in the chair as he is out of it. And on a more meta note, they're bringing back female characters, they're bringing back a POC, and now they're giving us a regular with a disability. Did the writers take diversity training over the summer or something?
That said, I believe one of two things will happen:
1. Bobby will become possessed. By an angel or a demon, I do not now. But if this happens, I could see his injury being healed by season's end.
2. Bobby will be healed. The more obvious choice (considering how Dean and Sam were presented as getting into that plane) will be that God will eventually show up as a character (dooooo eeeeeeet) and prove him- or herself (DOOOOOO EEEEEET) by healing Bobby. However, I do reserve the right to declare that Michael may entice Dean into letting him in, if my Michael theory doesn't pan out. Speaking of ...
-- My theory about Michael is that he's already in there.
Now granted, I may be saying because I really, really like stories where the boys or Bobby or who they already know turn out to be God or archangels in hiding or whatever. However, it's because of those stories that I think Michael already be inside Dean, and it's less a matter of permission letting him IN as it is permission to let him OUT.
1. They've all known this was coming for ages. And they've known who was destined to let Lucifer out. Dean WAS a bit of an oddball in regards to Sam when it came to the other "special children" -- an older sibling. Ansem and Andy were twins so it's different (a few minutes versus four years, better to guard a younger sibling), and it wasn't even until Jake that we all kind of assumed that Sam (and the twins) were flukes for not being only children.
2. It's sort of good in an "in emergency, break glass" situation. He's already in there, therefore if Dean never lets him out on his own, if an emergency strikes, he can break out anyway.
3. It would be a little poetic, if Michael did all that in cahoots with Zachariah, and then realized thanks to Sam that maybe there was something vastly wrong with what they were doing. And now they're influencing Castiel. Heh.
4. It would take Dean's daddy issues to an ENTIRELY different level.
5. Well, Dean IS badass.
-- I really do hope they bring in God as a character. Mostly because I can't help but picture Alanis Morrisette in the role. ;)
But, yeah. Isuspect hope if they do so, they'll bring in a woman to play her, which would be amazing. The thing is, her (yeah, I'm going to use female pronouns until she shows up, DEAL) main actions last night seemed to be:
1. Get Dean and Sam out of harm's way.
2. Bring back Castiel.
Considering only one of those benefits the plan Zachariah's been acting out -- Castiel is more than a hindrance to them anymore -- I think God's either had a change of heart or Zachariah's full of shit. Whatever it is, God seems to be breaking radio silence specifically for the Winchesters. It's a heady prospect, but it does make one wonder WHY the radio silence.
-- I'm not offended or embarrassed by Becky the fangirl.
Granted, I'll be honest about writing Wincest to anyone who asks and even have told people I write it. (I told a few co-workers back when I still HAD co-workers. One of them even made interested noises about reading some.) I usually couch it as more of a play on the Winchesters' weirdly close dynamic and really DEEP, MEANINGFUL bullshit about exploring how incest could stem out of a relationship like that in fiction, but I'm still honest.
Then again, I've been in fandom almost fifteen years. It's half of my lifetime at this point. I've seen a few portrayals of fandom IN fandom before, and SPN's take on fangirls is, to be honest, one of the most kindly realistic I've ever seen. There's a point to them referencing Galaxy Quest with the "I KNEW IT!" bit last night. Because that's another movie that kids fandom because it loves fandom.
I know it hits people's embarrassment squick hardcore, and I don't blame anybody for that. But just imagine the caricatures they could take this to. We've all been to SPN cons. We've SEEN how badly fandom can behave. Becky's portrayal was TAME. We, especially Wincest writers, are weird. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but we are. At least the writers understand that we're not CRIMINAL or whatever.
I also love the fact that Becky was a Samgirl, especially considering how Samgirls reacted to the last season of the show. And I adored the line about the angels being a nice change-up from the demons which were getting old, because I've never actually heard anybody in fandom say that, but ... yeah, they kinda were. HEE.
-- I find the arguments about "Oh, now DEAN is special" or "Oh, now SAM is special" a little strained at this point. Sam's the Boy King and Dean is Michael's Sword. They're kinda BOTH special at this point. It's kind of like bitching about Serena Williams winning a tennis open over Venus. "Oh, now SHE'S special." Serena winning Wimbledon (let's say) doesn't take anything away from the fact that Venus has a metric fuckload of tennis trophies, and vice versa.
-- That last scene between Sam and Dean was so RIGHT.
Healing their relationship is not going to be clean and quick. Sam DID chose a demon over Dean, and the consequences of his actions are vast. (The hilarious thing about the "signs of the apocalypse" -- natural disasters, plague, etc. -- as shown in the background throughout the show is that those things are always happening on some level, and with that sort of frequency. It's how doomsday cults stay in business.) And quite frankly, Sam is chastened HARDCORE. He knows he did wrong, but this is not something you fix by buying the next round at the bar. (I find it telling that part of saving Dean and Sam and putting them on the plane was God fixing Sam's bloodlust, if he's not lying about that. If God helped him skip withdrawal to keep him in the fight, there's got to be a good reason for it.)
That said, I seriously think Sam needed to hear possessed!Bobby tell him to lose his number when this is over. Did it hurt? Oh, God, did it. And Sam's wee puppy-dog face was heartbreaking. But Dean had been postponing their inevitable dustup over breaking the final seal. Sam hadn't really had to face what he'd done on a personal level yet, and here's his surrogate father throwing him out of his life. And this isn't John telling him to leave and never come back when he wanted to go to college. He genuinely did something WRONG, and it was a deserved slap in the face, demon or not.
They're going to have a tight relationship again by the end of the season. If they're not tight again by the end of the season the fandom will, quite frankly, have a fucking coronary when the finale rolls around. But the first thing they have to before they can even start on that is get over the HUGE hurdle that is Sam betraying Dean for a demon. And last night they took the first step, even if that first step does take them both onto a tenuous tightrope.
I fully expect them to have a genuine shouting match/fight over it eventually, though. Sooner or later Dean is going to snap and Sam is going to snap and by the end of it we're going to get so many "I couldn't live without you!" and "I love you!" and whatnot we'll go spastic with the brotherly love. Just you wait. ;)
Okay, so here's the thing. I know all the problems this show has with misogyny, and this may be an unpopular opinion (heh, MAY), but I'm okay with Dean dropping a "bitch" every once in a while. Not Sam, just Dean, and sometimes Bobby. It's not the show being misogynist. It's the character being a pig. Which is true. He's a hero, but he's still a pig. He's had barely any female influence in his life other than as sexual partners or villains. Like it or not, he's not going to be in the National Organization for Women. So while I'm not thrilled with him and smack my brother upside the head for the same language, Dean didn't have anybody to smack him upside the head for it (John had a lot of flaws, and being politically incorrect had to be a smidge of that). Sam, on the other hand, was the sensitive one. I have a hard time buying him dropping a "bitch" without a good goddamn reason.
Now, when it comes to violent female deaths ... yeah, that's a writer problem.
It would be completely unrealistic to go through the show without the male characters throwing down an occasional epithet, with the frequency depending on the character. There's a reason we have so many discussions about issues of sexism: because they exist in real life. And they have to exist in fiction, as well, at least from a character standpoint.
There's a big difference between "The writer is a misogynist" and "The character is a misogynist." Look at Mad Men, for heaven's sake. It's sexist as hell, but that's because that's the way it WAS.
I mean, gendered insults are a problem, whether it's women or demons. That said, if neither one of them ever called someone -- woman, man, demon, whatever -- a bitch, I'd be shocked and wouldn't buy it.
It's like the Bitchwatch. My main problem when I did that, in retrospect, wasn't that the insults were gendered (although that's a problem), it was the sudden inexplicable increase in them. That felt like a "misogynist-writer" problem, which is serious, rather than a "misogynist-character" problem, which is a character flaw that, while unappealing, is a sadly normal personal problem that people do have.
Heh. It's so much longer when you compile what I said in the actual post and what I added in comments. ;)
-- I believe Meg will come back. I don't feel like they'd make a point of bringing her back for one how-do-you-do. Will she be in the same actress again? Hell, will she BE in an actress this time? (I have this weird thought that if I were Kripke and had Meg to play with I'd throw her into Bobby. If it weren't for the fact that women don't get enough screentime on that show as it is and it's a waste of an actress, that is.) But I don't think they'd bring her back just to throw her away in the premiere.
-- On one hand, I'm horribly saddened that Bobby may never walk again. On the face of it.
Here's the thing. This is Bobby we're talking about. Even if he can't walk, he's STILL going to be kickass. Dean would trick out his wheelchair like WHOA, and he'd be just as tough as he is in the chair as he is out of it. And on a more meta note, they're bringing back female characters, they're bringing back a POC, and now they're giving us a regular with a disability. Did the writers take diversity training over the summer or something?
That said, I believe one of two things will happen:
1. Bobby will become possessed. By an angel or a demon, I do not now. But if this happens, I could see his injury being healed by season's end.
2. Bobby will be healed. The more obvious choice (considering how Dean and Sam were presented as getting into that plane) will be that God will eventually show up as a character (dooooo eeeeeeet) and prove him- or herself (DOOOOOO EEEEEET) by healing Bobby. However, I do reserve the right to declare that Michael may entice Dean into letting him in, if my Michael theory doesn't pan out. Speaking of ...
-- My theory about Michael is that he's already in there.
Now granted, I may be saying because I really, really like stories where the boys or Bobby or who they already know turn out to be God or archangels in hiding or whatever. However, it's because of those stories that I think Michael already be inside Dean, and it's less a matter of permission letting him IN as it is permission to let him OUT.
1. They've all known this was coming for ages. And they've known who was destined to let Lucifer out. Dean WAS a bit of an oddball in regards to Sam when it came to the other "special children" -- an older sibling. Ansem and Andy were twins so it's different (a few minutes versus four years, better to guard a younger sibling), and it wasn't even until Jake that we all kind of assumed that Sam (and the twins) were flukes for not being only children.
2. It's sort of good in an "in emergency, break glass" situation. He's already in there, therefore if Dean never lets him out on his own, if an emergency strikes, he can break out anyway.
3. It would be a little poetic, if Michael did all that in cahoots with Zachariah, and then realized thanks to Sam that maybe there was something vastly wrong with what they were doing. And now they're influencing Castiel. Heh.
4. It would take Dean's daddy issues to an ENTIRELY different level.
5. Well, Dean IS badass.
-- I really do hope they bring in God as a character. Mostly because I can't help but picture Alanis Morrisette in the role. ;)
But, yeah. I
1. Get Dean and Sam out of harm's way.
2. Bring back Castiel.
Considering only one of those benefits the plan Zachariah's been acting out -- Castiel is more than a hindrance to them anymore -- I think God's either had a change of heart or Zachariah's full of shit. Whatever it is, God seems to be breaking radio silence specifically for the Winchesters. It's a heady prospect, but it does make one wonder WHY the radio silence.
-- I'm not offended or embarrassed by Becky the fangirl.
Granted, I'll be honest about writing Wincest to anyone who asks and even have told people I write it. (I told a few co-workers back when I still HAD co-workers. One of them even made interested noises about reading some.) I usually couch it as more of a play on the Winchesters' weirdly close dynamic and really DEEP, MEANINGFUL bullshit about exploring how incest could stem out of a relationship like that in fiction, but I'm still honest.
Then again, I've been in fandom almost fifteen years. It's half of my lifetime at this point. I've seen a few portrayals of fandom IN fandom before, and SPN's take on fangirls is, to be honest, one of the most kindly realistic I've ever seen. There's a point to them referencing Galaxy Quest with the "I KNEW IT!" bit last night. Because that's another movie that kids fandom because it loves fandom.
I know it hits people's embarrassment squick hardcore, and I don't blame anybody for that. But just imagine the caricatures they could take this to. We've all been to SPN cons. We've SEEN how badly fandom can behave. Becky's portrayal was TAME. We, especially Wincest writers, are weird. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but we are. At least the writers understand that we're not CRIMINAL or whatever.
I also love the fact that Becky was a Samgirl, especially considering how Samgirls reacted to the last season of the show. And I adored the line about the angels being a nice change-up from the demons which were getting old, because I've never actually heard anybody in fandom say that, but ... yeah, they kinda were. HEE.
-- I find the arguments about "Oh, now DEAN is special" or "Oh, now SAM is special" a little strained at this point. Sam's the Boy King and Dean is Michael's Sword. They're kinda BOTH special at this point. It's kind of like bitching about Serena Williams winning a tennis open over Venus. "Oh, now SHE'S special." Serena winning Wimbledon (let's say) doesn't take anything away from the fact that Venus has a metric fuckload of tennis trophies, and vice versa.
-- That last scene between Sam and Dean was so RIGHT.
Healing their relationship is not going to be clean and quick. Sam DID chose a demon over Dean, and the consequences of his actions are vast. (The hilarious thing about the "signs of the apocalypse" -- natural disasters, plague, etc. -- as shown in the background throughout the show is that those things are always happening on some level, and with that sort of frequency. It's how doomsday cults stay in business.) And quite frankly, Sam is chastened HARDCORE. He knows he did wrong, but this is not something you fix by buying the next round at the bar. (I find it telling that part of saving Dean and Sam and putting them on the plane was God fixing Sam's bloodlust, if he's not lying about that. If God helped him skip withdrawal to keep him in the fight, there's got to be a good reason for it.)
That said, I seriously think Sam needed to hear possessed!Bobby tell him to lose his number when this is over. Did it hurt? Oh, God, did it. And Sam's wee puppy-dog face was heartbreaking. But Dean had been postponing their inevitable dustup over breaking the final seal. Sam hadn't really had to face what he'd done on a personal level yet, and here's his surrogate father throwing him out of his life. And this isn't John telling him to leave and never come back when he wanted to go to college. He genuinely did something WRONG, and it was a deserved slap in the face, demon or not.
They're going to have a tight relationship again by the end of the season. If they're not tight again by the end of the season the fandom will, quite frankly, have a fucking coronary when the finale rolls around. But the first thing they have to before they can even start on that is get over the HUGE hurdle that is Sam betraying Dean for a demon. And last night they took the first step, even if that first step does take them both onto a tenuous tightrope.
I fully expect them to have a genuine shouting match/fight over it eventually, though. Sooner or later Dean is going to snap and Sam is going to snap and by the end of it we're going to get so many "I couldn't live without you!" and "I love you!" and whatnot we'll go spastic with the brotherly love. Just you wait. ;)
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no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 01:01 pm (UTC)Of course it's only JUST been SPN time for me so I'm still in Thursday-brain. I doubt I will get more coherent, though, so thx for doin' it for me!
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 01:06 pm (UTC)And right on about that last scene. It was perfect.
Re: The Relationship
Date: 2009-09-11 01:09 pm (UTC)But as I pointed out to Robin - while Dean may feel on the surface that he can't trust Sam, he still considers Sam family and he still trusts him in the car and in the fight.
This makes it fixable.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 01:11 pm (UTC)FUCKING YES. This is what I was waiting for all through season four, when the relationship was strained, but not really broken, it was wobbly and weird. But YES YES YES, this is the season of REBUILDING and DEVELOPING and letting both Sam and Dean be human in a way, react like a human would to real human relationship problems because they've got some huge cosmic destiny, yes, but they are still HUMAN at the very core and I eat that dynamic up with a spoon.
In conclusion: YES TO EVERYTHING.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 01:16 pm (UTC)Also, I like your idea about Michael and I wish to subscribe to this newsletter.
My favorite depiction of God was as a tiny mute black girl in Crimson. I've felt Zachariah was full of shit since the finale of last season, and I seriously have to wonder if maybe he wanted Lucifer dead so he could take over. There can't be a power vacuum like that, you get into the whole light/shadow dichotomy.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 02:25 pm (UTC)It wasn't that Sam brought about the apocalypse because seriously, WHO would have ever thought that killing the DEMON, LILITH, was the WRONG thing to do?? It's the how of it; it's the proverbial road with good intentions; the collateral damage; it's the believing Ruby, the demon, over Dean.
And yes. By the end of the season, it'll be okay - I have to believe that. But it HAS to be addressed, because this is a huge issue. And so.
(ACK have to run to airport -- will read and maybe write more later!)
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 06:02 pm (UTC)I don't write fanfic of any kind, but I thought Becky was a lovely shout-out to the fans. It didn't feel to me like they were being patronizing or mean. It was more like "we know you are out there and you're kind of weird but we love your enthusiasm."
And yes yes yes to the way it ended. This show is flawed in many ways, but it remains awesome for the way it handles the brothers' relationship.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-12 01:46 pm (UTC)This, exactly.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 06:34 pm (UTC)It IS true, which is why I kinda feel it's a case of laughing AT, instead of with. But I can't actually read the writer's mind, so I can't say for sure. But I think breaking the fourth wall is one of those love it or hate it things anyway.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 06:51 pm (UTC)It's like they're our neighbors, and they're nice to us at parties, they asked us for the recipe for our family pumpkin cake because they loved it so much and it made us giddy that they thought so, they eagerly took our advice on their Halloween directions, but this one time during the block party they did a funny skit about how silly it is that we knitted our lawn gnomes pointy-hat cozies -- which even we freely admit is silly -- so why exactly are we offended by that?
I mean, really, if they were laughing at us, Becky wouldn't have been a sweet stuttering girl, she would have immediately pounced Sam upon his opening the door and the writers would have found some way to put a female character in the room with them when she arrived so Becky could spit on her.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-11 06:56 pm (UTC)Heh. This is true.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-12 06:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-09-12 11:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-09-12 06:48 am (UTC)