Boatloads of complaining ... or, you know, just the one boat.

[apocalypsos]

Okay, so I have these thoughts about tonight's episode of SPN. Or more specifically, one aspect.

I like Jo.

I don't love her yet but then again, I haven't had nearly enough time to love her. I like her in concept, though, and what I saw tonight (for the most part, which I'm about to get to) I liked as well. That's not to mention that I thought Alona Tal was adorable on Veronica Mars and was anticipating seeing her again.

Like I said, I like Jo.

But I would have liked her better if at no time had either her or Dean mentioned hooking up or getting hit on.

I know Dean hits on everything, but there are a few reasons I'd be more inclined to like Dean and Jo together if they hadn't flirted tonight. For one thing, his father just died, for crying out loud. He's in the middle of trying to work out his emotions over the whole thing and they've got him feeling this connection with her now? Why? Because she was the first pretty girl he ran into? I would want to see the pairing more if they weren't just, "Well, you didn't immediately hit on me. Want to hook up? Maybe later, okay? Okay!"

Another thing that bugs me about the pairing is that Dean ALWAYS does this. It's always the heat and the sex first and any sort of real relationship second. Even with Cassie ... I mean, he didn't spend that long with her, and yet he makes a crack after sex about them always being good at that. What I was hoping for is that at no point would he have hit on her, at no point would she have mentioned guys hitting on her, and that the two of them would start off just talking. Nothing more. Just finding a friendly connection, that's all.

If Kripke wanted me to believe a little more in the pairing, I would have preferred friends first. Maybe Dean realizes that he can talk to her differently than he can talk to Sam. Talking to Sam means turning the conversation into this thing where there's baggage. Talking to Sam means when he's talking about rebuilding the Impala or the demon hunt or whatever, he's really talking about something else. But what if the relationship had merely started out as Jo being someone he could just talk to? No assumptions of what he really means, just someone willing to sit down and shoot the shit with him. No hitting on one another, maybe a little sniping at one another, but more like reluctantly friendly conversation.

I didn't want them to immediately discuss hooking up, I wanted Dean to make a friend.

ETA: Okay, I've figured out a better way of putting it, I think.

I can see Jo giving Dean an immediate No because of this.

When we look at Dean in the episode, all broken and pretty with his one lonely tear, we think, "Aw, poor baby!" and want to give him pity sex.

But we didn't grow up around hunters. Hunters who, for the most part, have been portrayed as slovenly, morally questionable, criminally inclined, psychologically damaged in some way or another, ready to commit violent acts, and quite possibly womanizers and/or alcoholics. Jo isn't seeing hunting the way we see it, she sees it from an everyday point-of-view. These are the same guys who come into her mother's roadhouse to get wasted after a hunt and hit on her. I would not be the least bit surprised if she'd sworn off hunters as possible dates from the minute she'd gotten interested in guys. Regardless of how pretty Dean might be, she is not an everyday girl who's going to be impressed by his bravery.

If she'd given him a, "Don't even think about it, buster. Hunters are too high-maintenance," I would have bought that, given the men and women she's grown up around.

Comments

[kurukami.livejournal.com]

See, I'm not so sure Dean has the instincts to do that. He's been in that libidinous rut of want, take, have, leave for probably the better part of a decade. Most of his experience with people he could arguably call friend were with men, not women. He's the guy with the quick story and the flashy line, not the one who people become friends with straight off the bat.

See, I liked that they showed that uncertainty in him -- yes, that there was an attraction between them, but also that he was seriously broken up inside about John's death and whatever it was John told him right before he died (which we saw intimations of in his conversations with Sam throughout the ep).

I'll be interested to see both Dean's and Sam's transformations as characters over the course of this season. Because one thing's for certain -- they're no longer the guys they were during season 1. Too much has fallen into their life for that to be true.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

See, I can go with Dean being used to hitting on everything, but her reaction bothered me more than his. I would have liked an, "Are you kidding me?" out of her, not an, "Most guys hit on me right on the bat. Want to hook up?" I would have liked it better if her reaction to him hadn't been so ... eh, weird, I guess.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

Well, they are the most normal things in each other's lives. They both know about oogity-boogities, they both can show signs of normal humanity and Dean's cool for having the manly scar watching out for his brother.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i think the only way dean CAN make friends with a hot blond hunter chick is if he tries hitting on her and then it doesn't work out. i mean. i think it'd be a little unrealistic for dean (which i'm pretty sure is navajo for man-who-hits-on-women) to never make any reference to how hot she is. when he always always always does always forever amen.

now they can have a friendly conversation. some sexual tension, sure, but on a back burner. now they can hang out, maybe hunt some monsters, and she can just leave at the end of the day, no worse for wear.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I think I would have liked an immediate shootdown better, though. I mean, when does Dean ever get a complete and total shutdown? She left him with the option open, which ... eh. Something about the way it worked out doesn't sit well with me.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i could not have bought her character as being realistic at all had she utterly shut down dean winchester. esp whilst said winchester was being all noble omg.

i do not know why having this character on the show is controversial. helps?

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I could. "I know how you hunters are with girls" + "I heard stories from your dad about you and how you treat women" (if that "Who?" line hadn't been in there about John) + "Aren't you still grieving over your dead dad?" = I probably wouldn't have gone near him right now, either, if I were her, pretty face or not. She's in a unique position as a girl if they'd made it so that she'd met John ... she's heard of Dean through John, she already knows his flaws, she's been around hunters enough not to impressed by said nobility, and ... you know, the mourning. If not for that pesky "Who?", though. *grumbles*

As for the controversial thing ... well, you know, girl supposed to hook up with Dean long-term = EVOL. I don't know ... all the bitching in fandom over those spoilers about her and all.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i know not of said spoilers.

i don't know, man. i speak not of you when i say this, but there seems to be something of a gollum complex with some corners of fandom and dean. i just picture his poor little face, horrified, as they crouch over him and rub his head and murmur about how they must keep the nasty others away from the precious, they wants it for themselves but we won't lets them have it, no.

i would be okay with it if she hooked up with dean. i think that would be nice for him, to have somebody know his secret and take no guff from him anyway. i mean, she's a superhot hunter chick. *I* would nail her, i dont know why dean can't. :)

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I guess it's just that I don't get why a girl who's grown up around hunters would ever even think about hooking up with one. I mean, WE think they're cool, but we haven't had to watch them come in and get sloshed while grabbing our ass and telling people about the thing they just killed.

For the most part, the hunters we've seen have been criminally, morally, and psychologically flawed to all kinds of fun extremes. I just have a hard time understanding how someone who's seen guys like John and Daniel Elkins and Ash and the schmuck from next week's episode passing through would ever want to go near a hunter. These aren't exactly the pinnacle of the dating pool.

I can't even see a girl who's sworn off hunters for those reasons breaking her rule for Dean, pretty or not.

For the record, I'll be okay with it if they hook up. I just want somebody to write it better. (I would not be adverse to stepping into said role ... *shifty eyes*)

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

if it's all you know, man, you go with it.

her daddy was a hunter. and if you grow up with a guy who thinks he's a hero as your father - and he actually IS a hero - i bet you wind up with some issues of your own, y'know? i totally buy that she'd be interested in dean. with all that nobility jazz, he's probably a dead ringer.

now ellen. i bet SHE has sworn off hunters for a bunch of really good reasons. i will totally buy that for a dollar.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

Well, from her perspective, she can't hook up with a guy who doesn't know about the monsters, any halfway clever guy would go after her. But I agree it's a bit odd.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

Oh lord, I messed that up. Like with the Winchesters, any halfway clever monster would go after any demon-hunter's snuggly-bunnies.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

Well, who knows? I would imagine a lot of the hunters are in it for the thrill. Adrenaline junkies. It's obvious the No-Comb Boys are in it for (mainly) the protecting of innocents.

Just rambling.

[foenix.livejournal.com]

Well, as far as flirting goes, this is almost nonexistant for Dean. =)

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

True, but still. There's something about the writing of it that I just don't like.

[tabaqui]

Um.
I want Ellen to be like Sarah Connor. I wish hardcore that Jo hadn't been a cliche bonde chica with attitude and lo-rise jeans.
*sigh*

Please gods she's not gonna be a regular, 'cause it'll get smarmy and stupid. I do not trust tv people *at all*. Right now i'm way more interested in seeing events play out and Sam and Dean come to terms with things than i am in hooking Dean up with *anybody*. Or Sam, for that matter. Like Dean said - in these times...not really all that important.

*plus, you know, sick of tv *always always always* shoving a relationship down my throat. Just friends would be *fine*, hello, it happens in real life, too!!*

*cough*
/rant

Sorry. Just tired of that. From 'we just met' to 'we are so in love omg4evah!!' is just too dull and annoying.

[cleverthylacine]

I love Ellen.

I don't like Jo. But I also didn't come out of this episode believing in Dean/Jo as a real possibility, and the spoilers I read recently, that I don't want to quote in case others have chosen not to read them, do not make me think that it will go there, at least certainly not any time soon.

Dean is hot enough that I can see a girl her age reconsidering her vow never to date hunters. I reconsidered my vow never to date members of a certain group, when I was her age, because I met a member of that group who was just that hot. It ended in spectacular badness, just as my better angel told me it would. But it was some great sex. But the thing is, Dean turned her down. He would be hitting on her normally, but something inside him has changed.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

She's just using him to get at Sam, especially after hearing how he kicked ass on Invisible Clown Man.

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

I pretty much totally agree with you. I wanted to like her...and I do, but I would have liked it better if she hadn't kinda sorta almost asked Dean out there at the end. Everything up until that was good. (I might have rewound her punching him a couple times.)

I liked Dean almost hitting on her out of habit and then not--that seems in character to me and awesome. And I would totally have been OK with them flirting in a bantery, guarded way and maybe her giving him some wary yet lusty eyeball, but that explicit "hey wanna?" was just weird, and didn't match up with her earlier snark.

Um, as regards to Jo and hunters I have something to say about that but it involves the content of her "journal" that was included in the DVD (CD Rom) features. Except those aren't spoilers, are they? They're about her past.

Oh fuck it, I'll just say it and hope I don't alienate you. In her journal we find out that she has dated a hunter before--it seems that almost everyone she knows is one--BUT her primary concern throughout was in how to *become* a hunter and struggling to get people to teach her stuff and really wanting to be taken seriously and not sheltered.

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

It's way too late and now I'm having some anxiety about having mentioned the content of Jo's journal. It's just so weird in this new media saturation of tie-ins and DVD extras to figure out what's the "show text" and what's not. Like is that stuff canon? It seems to be "official." And now I'm babbling nerdily in your journal and we don't even know each other.

Sorry if there's reason to be sorry, and now I'm going to bed.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

In her journal we find out that she has dated a hunter before

I swore I read that before and that's what throwing me off. She knows these guys come with baggage, and she wants to be one. Why would she want to date one? I mean, I know they look heroic to US, but I have a hard time believing she finds them heroic, even if her father was one and even if she wants to do it herself.

The whole set-up makes it feel like she's way too young and naive even now.

[random-serious.livejournal.com]

I agree with your POV: I want Dean to have a friend, but then again I tend to prefer friendships over romantic/ sexual relationships on TV. At this point, it would be nity to have Dean to have more legs to stand on than just his relationship with Sam that has baggage. In short, I agree with you.

[seimaisin.livejournal.com]

These are good points. My own issue with the Dean and Jo dynamic is that the actress and Jensen didn't really have anything related to chemistry, but I'm willing to write that off as the Dean-mourning thing. But, I find myself nodding to your objections, too. If I were writing the show (... sigh ;)), I'd want her to be a lot more of a hardass where all hunters, even cute ones, are concerned.

But, I'm reserving full judgement on her until I see her do something. If she gets involved in a plot somehow that doesn't solely revolve around being Dean's semi-romantic foil, then we can see what she's really made of.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I know! What I really wish they would have brought on is an experienced hunter, someone who's known Dean for a while and shot him down already or already gotten the initial hitting-on-her out of the way. And I really don't like the fact that this is a female character Dean and Sam's age who's got enough training and yet is STILL trying to be a hunter.

[mayatawi.livejournal.com]

You know, I just don't want Dean to be in a relationship, even an on/off long-distance thing. And that's just me, because that's boring to me. (Although, if he's trying to be omg!faithful, and then it's, like, months apart, and he's getting really really frustrated... hmm. Comedy potential there.)

But someone on my flist suggested a Dean/Ellen hookup. You know-- fakeout! You think he'll go for the hot young chick, and suddenly, bam, it's the hot older chick instead. And, DUDE, DEAN/ELLEN, HOW HOT WOULD THAT BE.

So those are my thoughts on yaoi Dean and sex. Can we start a petition or something? Those always, always work, right?

...bah.

[mayatawi.livejournal.com]

...aaaand I just saw your post before this one. So obviously you agree. :D

[varity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but she was kinda 'Umm, hunters now way' at first and thenshe gave in which I though was weird. The whole thing was just weird, with him being all 'LETS HOOK UP... ERM NEVERMIND... OKAY MAYBE' it was just... forced. Though maybe he was feeling the connection thing somehow but he went witht he plain sweet talking in the end out of habit? Like the thing he THINKS he WOULD do if stuff were NORMAL... since up to the very end he was in some sort of fucked up denial... RIGTH UNTIL HE STARTED BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF THE POOR IMPALA---

[dragonsinger.livejournal.com]

*Nods* That and the lack of chemistry were my problems, too. Maybe it can still be reworked into a friendship. I want to see Jo grow on her own first.

[muffaletta.livejournal.com]

Totally agree-the whole Jo/Dean thing yesterday just felt....off. Dean tries halfheartedly to flirt and then pulls back. Jo talks about how men try to get in her pants and a few hours later, segregates Sam away (which came across kind of rude) so she can tell Dean that he would be welcome there after all. I mean, I know Dean's hot but this bordered on desperation and actually, inappropriateness. It would have seemed more believable if Jo had offered to listen or brought him a tuna casserole ('cause nothing says "I'm sorry"...)

I wanted to like Jo. Really. 'Cause I'm worried that, for better or worse, they're going to hook her up with Dean. It's not that I am against Dean finding someone at some point: I just think he's got so many issues right now, I can't see him in anything serious. And even if he were to find someone, it would make more sense that his love interest be a stabilizing force: someone older with more life experience than Jo (like Ellen, for example. Loved the fic, btw.) I'm sorry but Jo's too young, naive, and too cutsey to skillfully maneuveur through Dean's damaged psyche. A one night stand, maybe. A friend, maybe. A hunting protege, maybe. But not a recurring love interest, IMO.

I know it's not even remotely possible except in AU fanfic but I would still love for Jo to turn out to be evil. Seriously. Like that missing boyfriend Rick in her journal turns out to be Demon!Tom that Dean killed and now she wants revenge. So Jo tries to seduce Dean in order for some nefarious reason. Yup, that's the ticket.

[healerariel.livejournal.com]

I... just can't bring myself to like her. I can't bring myself to like any canon romances, because A.)if continued and emphasized, they would take the focus away from Sam and Dean's relationship, and B.) the women in this series are, with very few exceptions, kind of badly written and unbelievable. I'm hoping this whole thing isn't intended to be more than semi-permanent, if it even has to be that. Stop with the love interests, producers. Just... stop.

*snicker* You know what would never happen, but would be choke-on-your-tongue-and-die hilarious? I mean, since we have no idea of Jo's age (except that she's likely a few years younger than Dean), don't know who her father was, and have speculation from Sam that John and Ellen had a thing...

You know where I'm going with this one. But imagine the facial expressions, and the hours of washing mouths out with soap. That alone would endear Jo to me. Take notes, Kripke.