Question ...
Mar. 14th, 2008 04:54 pm... which I know I've asked before, but I'm brainstorming so what the hell?
See, I'm kind of desperate to write a book with a female protagonist. (Well, one that works out, anyway -- I'm still trying to get the ones I'm working on now to either keep going or get started in the first place.) And I keep writing down things I've absolutely hated when it came to the last few female protagonists I've read, like when they're torn between two handsome men (oh, boo fucking hoo).
What don't you like in a female protagonist? I mean, there are some very well-written books out there focusing on women but there are so many out there where something about the way they're written always manages to rub me the wrong way. (See: Anita Blake having sex with anything that moves, Betsy Taylor being a spoiled shoe addict, any superpowered female character who makes neverending puns about their paranormal status, etc.)
See, I'm kind of desperate to write a book with a female protagonist. (Well, one that works out, anyway -- I'm still trying to get the ones I'm working on now to either keep going or get started in the first place.) And I keep writing down things I've absolutely hated when it came to the last few female protagonists I've read, like when they're torn between two handsome men (oh, boo fucking hoo).
What don't you like in a female protagonist? I mean, there are some very well-written books out there focusing on women but there are so many out there where something about the way they're written always manages to rub me the wrong way. (See: Anita Blake having sex with anything that moves, Betsy Taylor being a spoiled shoe addict, any superpowered female character who makes neverending puns about their paranormal status, etc.)
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Date: 2008-03-14 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 11:33 pm (UTC)I'm not even sure Jacob is a catch but hes sure as heck better than Edward.
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Date: 2008-03-15 12:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-15 01:22 pm (UTC)(If you do want to read them reply to this and I'll upload them)
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Date: 2008-03-14 08:57 pm (UTC)*Twitches*
I like a bitch as much as anyone. It's the hypocrites I can't take.
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 08:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 08:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 09:01 pm (UTC)Or the ones that are all about how all men suck. Or everyone else sucks! And poor, pitiful, unloved protagonist who no one understands.
But well, I don't think there's much of a worry of you writing a book with either of those kinds of protagonist!
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 09:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 09:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 09:08 pm (UTC)1. Mary-Sueishness. I don't mean women can't kick ass, obviously, I just mean characters who aren't allowed to fail or fuck up, or who must always be heroic rather than having negative traits like greed or selfishness that are PRESENTED as negative traits.
2. Women who are sexual always being portrayed as fucked up around sex or in entrenched relationships - there are very few happily promiscuous women in fiction and I think that's not really representative.
3. For examples of female characters I really DO like, see Sarah Lumb (Regeneration Trilogy), Eddy Sung (Drawing Blood), and Rose (Sandman).
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)*Actually, the hero, too, but since we're talking about female characters...
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)I just like women who are people first and women second. I don't like reading stereotypes. An author can sell me on almost any personality trait or situation, if it's honest and not just a carbon copy of an identifiable stereotype/trope.
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Date: 2008-03-14 10:03 pm (UTC)Please imagine me nodding frantically. I've always been intensely annoyed when people make my genitals the most important thing about me. I mean, speaking personally, I'd love to see a female character who's like a gritty, stoic John Wayne cowboy - y'know, without all the other characters going, "Gasp! She's so gritty and stoic! How unusual in a woman!"
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 09:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 09:21 pm (UTC)I don't like it where female = weak or sex crazed.
Del from the Sword Dancer series (Jennifer Roberson) is an example of a strong woman. She is just as capable as the male protagonist, and while the first book did deal with sexism, afterwards, it was less of an issue.
While women are different, it shouldn't mean weak. Kitara from DragonLance, Sookie Stackhouse (Charlaine Harris) both deal with the undead, without simpering. Georgina Kincaid (Richelle Mead), Eden Moore (Cherie Priest) deal with the supernatural and have abilities...
Its about not insulting our intelligence, or women in general.
Cordelia Vorkosigan is a perfect example. Capable, deals with a male dominated society, makes them adjust to her, but is not a Mary Sue. Honor Harrington, in the beginning was a good example, before she became infected with MS.
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:44 pm (UTC)I like when the women have some doubts but not be ignorant of their skills. I don't want to listen to her boo hoo about things when we know that she's more than capable and that she should know that by now (a sure sign she's stupid). Make her doubts be about other things.
Don't let her be the most beautiful. Let her best friend or business partner be stunning while she's still attractive. Don't let her be the most intelligent but surround herself by intelligent people. (Unless you want her to be the genius in which case you've got a lot of work to do to make her likable).
Just my 25 cents worth.
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:56 pm (UTC)Heroines who are so pure and kind that they end up looking ignorant as to the way the world works. Or the heroines who develop some supernatural skill, but spend the entire novel whining about how it isn't possible to be such-and-such.
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Date: 2008-03-14 09:57 pm (UTC)1) Overly emotional. Yes, women are more empathic than men. We get it. That doesn't measn they need to be ruled by their emotions.
2) Women who are the protagonist; but always need saved by the guy.
3) When everything is the guy's fault. Always. Even when he's out of the country.
4) Constantly angsting over her relationship or lack thereof or guys in general.
5) Overly obsessed with clothes/shoes/makeup/worldly goods.
6) If she's Barbie perfect. A good character has faults.
7) If she's a total prude or a complete slut.
8) Laura K. Hamilton is guilty of this one: The protagonist does as many stupid things as possible and somehow doesn't die.
9) Drama Queen/professional martyr.
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Date: 2008-03-14 10:02 pm (UTC)I have slightly more tolerance for it with historical heroines, both because I know the author has to remind the reader that no one is wearing jeans, and because I have kind of a kink for historical costume porn, but in modern stuff? She's wearing clothes and either wearing makeup or not, OMG let's move on.
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Date: 2008-03-14 10:30 pm (UTC)When the female protagonist/character is so obviously just the writer's fantasy woman, without any resemblence to reality or real females anywhere.
And I know this isn't constructive but just... blatant mary-sueness. And I mean blatant.
Okay, and yeah, cos I read fantasy, you get a lot of "Puppet men with super-powerful scheming women behind them pulling the strings" misogynist cliche shit and that makes me really angry.
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Date: 2008-03-14 10:45 pm (UTC)- Unrealistic hotness, or kicking ass in unrealistic clothes. (Buffy did a nice subversion of this with "I go patrolling in this halter top all the time!") I'm okay with women kicking ass, and I'm okay with women in skin-tight leather catsuits and heels, but I'm not okay with women kicking ass while wearing skin-tight leather catsuits and heels.
- Over-the-top religiousity.
- Hot chicks who can't get laid because they have glasses or something. That always annoys me.
I also get annoyed when every single female protagonist has to be pretty and twenty-something. I've got a real hankering to read about some middle-aged heroines, courtesy of The Sarah Jane Smith Adventures and The New Moon's Arms.
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Date: 2008-03-14 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 11:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 11:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-14 11:19 pm (UTC)1) Are not self-sufficient and do nothing to improve their situation.
2) Are self-sufficient, but spend the whole damn book pining away for twu wuv.
3) Are self-sufficient, but give it all up for a flimsy premise of twu wuv.
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Date: 2008-03-14 11:21 pm (UTC)I don't have a problem with women kicking seven kinds of superathletic arse out of their enemies, I don't even have a problem with them doing it in slightly silly clothes if it's a fantasy. But I hate when everything the character does is commented on as 'and isn't this cool that she can do this even though she's a woman!'
You can address the gender issues (if you want to) without bashing the reader around the head with them. Or you can not bother, that's fine too!
I've kinda started twitching just at the mention of how awesome kick-arse heroines are and how much we love strong women characters - because, should that not be obvious? Why are they inherently more interesting than kick-arse heroes? (Unless it's historical in which case there would be a bit more sneaking around and manouvering of large skirts which can be quite interesting.)
Ever read the Eyre Affair and its sequels? They're by Jasper Fforde, and a) they are hilarious and brilliant and b) they feature Thursday Next, who is a really great herone. Cop, book-lover, croquet-player, dimension-hopper, eventually wife and mother, and without ever getting annoying. It's just... she loves her family and she shoots at bad guys, both of those are taken as an absolute given. No flag-waving.
(In the most recent one, First Among Sequels - which I'm afraid would probably make no sense if read on its own - she encounters two fictionalised versions of herself from the novelisations of her life. One is a ball-busting bitch in black leather with a rampant sex drive and no morals, and the other is a hippie who does yoga and just wants to give the bad guys a hug. They're equally irritating.)
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Date: 2008-03-14 11:25 pm (UTC)Just...in general...half-things irritate me. half-demon, half-angel, half-fairy, half-whatthefuckever. halfsies just drives me up a wall.
Um. Okay. What else irritates me about female characters? Oh. Supposedly strong female characters who suddenly meet some guy and fall head over heels and...really aren't very strong anymore.
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Date: 2008-03-15 01:15 am (UTC)I have no trouble with having the main character be a bitch, but use it, don't either ignore it or justify it.
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Date: 2008-03-15 01:39 am (UTC)Eve Dallas: From the In Death series of futuristic/mystery/romance novels by J.D. Robb (pseudonym for Nora Roberts, one of the best-selling romance authors of the modern age), Eve is a tough, NYC lieutenant in the Homicide division. She started out as a ball-buster and a real bitch, but--
Okay, yes, she started to change into a more well-rounded person once she found a really hot, rich, Irishman to love her and show her the meaning of togetherness, but it wasn't easy for them. And oh, Christ, she had also been systematically sexually abused as a kid, and yes, with the help of twu wuv, she started to get over it...
I'm not making a good case, am I? Let's do an analysis:
The problem with ball-busters is that that no one wants to empathize with them because they can get so mean and unlikable. Eve found someone to accept her for who she was, warts and all, and that's what started the change. Other things that helped were her starting to reach out to other people in her life, including her eventual new partner, a "hippie" cop who showed Eve the value in different kinds of female friendship. And there was the police psychologist who saw something in Eve and really worked towards breaking down her emotional defenses by becoming the mother-figure she never had. One of the things that I loved from the recent books is that the psychologist said that if she'd continued her ball-busting ways, she would have eventually cracked and burned out as a detective because the work she does is very emotionally disturbing. And it was reaching out to other people and admitting that she needed other people (not just her hot, rich, Irishman--did I mention that he was phenomenally rich?) in her life to become a more complete human.
So that's why I like Eve: she's strong, but can admit her weaknesses.
Phedre no Delauney: From the Kushiel's Dart series of fantasy novels set in an alternate Europe by Jaqueline Carey, she has some of the hallmarks of being a Mary Sue. Sold by her parents into indentured servitude in the "whorehouse" where her mother trained (but think Firefly-type courtesans, y'know?), she has a special gift from the gods that makes her feel pleasure and pain as one. Yes, our heroine is a masochist. But then a rich nobleman saw the gift and bought her servitude and trained her to be a spy. So yes, very Mary Sue.
But for some reason, I never think it's annoying when she can almost instantly tell when someone's lying to her, because she was trained to learn those things--like Bruce Wayne, y'know? If I can accept that Bruce Wayne was able to learn all those things, I can accept that this daughter of a temple prostitute can do the same as well. Because it's all about the alternate realm they live in where the one precept that everyone lives by is "Love as thou wilt." She loved her benefactor, and thus learned all she could for him. (It also doesn't hurt that there was a foster brother to her who was also learning the same things at the same time, so it's not like she was totally special.) She can't fight well, but she can fuck well, and that, too is acceptable because it's what she learned in the house before her benefactor "bought" her.
Phedre messes up a lot, and gets herself into trouble, and yes, her eventual handsome (btw, everyone in the country is so freaking beautiful, but that's a function of them being descended from angels, okay?) kickass bodyguard/consort saves her a lot, but she also saves herself many times, too, due to her training. God-marked as she is, she also uses human intuition to get by, and that's likable.
So I guess my one overwhelming reason why I like both these women is that they're human. Which means that I dislike female protagonists who are not.
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Date: 2008-03-15 05:58 am (UTC)+ The casual judgments Sookie makes about all other women based on their sexuality. I'm pretty sure this is more the author revealing her prejudices about non-mainstream, vanilla sexual expressions than an actual choice about the character's personality, because I noticed this is another of her book series, too, but either way, it drives me absolutely crazy. Just about all other women are shown to be absolute whores if they don't want to settle down and get married and only have sex with one man ever.
+ Sookie's obsession with getting married. It always ALWAYS goes like this. Living in sin, can't get married because it's not legal, Bill hasn't asked her anyway. Almost verbatim, every single time.
+ All the guys want her. (A la Anita Blake.) And she doesn't see it. And when someone points it out to her, she denies it.
+ She knows she's attractive. She says she knows she's attractive. And yet she still looks to the menfolk for confirmation of this fact.
+ The fangbanger thing, where anyone who wants to be around the vampires is a simpering, slutty idiot. God, Sookie is SO judgmental.
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Date: 2008-03-15 07:21 am (UTC)For myself...what do I hate with female protagonists?
1) Everyone loves them, except for the bad guys. I'm a perverse soul. A character that everyone loves and that the author blatantly wants me to love makes me want to drop kick the character over a goal-post. It's like being back in high school and being told about the sheer wonderfulness of the cheerleaders. I was one of those girls who wasn't friends with the cheerleaders, and who wasn't part of their little group. Relentlessly adored characters affect me the same way. I will go out of my way to analyze and critique them. Believe me.
2) The character insists that she's ugly when she's not; or, conversely, she complains that she's TOO beautiful. Or TOO thin. Characters like this always make me want to compel them to work with people with birth defects and disabilities for a while, just to make them quit their bitching. If it's sincere lack of self-esteem, I get annoyed; if it's a case of the author trying to get me to say, "Oh, no, no, you're not flawed at ALL!" about her li'l avatar...well, I get even more annoyed.
3) The female protagonist never does anything, or only does something if accompanied by the male protagonist/is the love interest. Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake and Merry Gentry are guilty of this. Anita makes a lot of noise about feminism, but as near as I can tell, she doesn't do anything but fuck everything that's male, whether it's alive or undead (species and age unimportant), occasionally beat up the bad guys, and go back to fucking again. She hasn't done her Federal Marshall job in years (not that LKH ever researched that anyway), and despite all of her nominal positions as the head of this and the master of that, she never gives the impression that she spends any time politicking, negotiating, compromising, or doing anything, in fact, beyond being the St. Louis bicycle. Merry started out as a paranormal P.I. of fairy descent--now she's trying to procreate her way into queenship.
I'm sure that "feminism" does not mean "fucking your way to the top."
Give me heroines who are capable without being uber-powered, and who actually have existences apart from their love and sex lives.
Stopping here; will pick up in next post.
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Date: 2008-03-15 08:21 am (UTC)"At thirteen, she was brewing polyjuice, stealing hairs from children, and using both to spy on her enemies.
At fifteen, she kidnapped and blackmailed a journalist.
At sixteen, she started an underground army of underage warriors, and facially scarred the "traitor" to the group. She also blackmailed the journalist again, strongarming the press to print her propaganda. On the fly, she came up with a plan to use centaurs to punish a hated rival to her rise to power.
At seventeen, she interrupted her plans for world domination to attack her true love with canaries.
At eighteen, she masterminded the overthrow of the current dark lord, and, along the way, she broke into the Ministry of Magic and Gringott's (unbreak-into-able) Bank. She also successfully rid herself of her inconvenient parents (and without bloodshed!)"
Now, I don't mind Hermione doing bad stuff. I don't mind ANY protagonist doing bad things. I do, however, mind that she never gets chewed out or punished or suffers the slightest adverse consequence for her actions. I expect in-character actions to result in in-character consequences.
5) Soul-bonding. This is the laziest shortcut to romance ever, and I hate it. Good grief, I can't think of anything WORSE than to be bonded to someone for eternity. What if you change? What if he or she changes? Do you have any privacy left? What if you're bonded to one another and you don't LIKE each other?
6) The female protagonist isn't as complex as the male protagonist. This is common, unfortunately. The female protag usually has only one thing to do--find her true love, or do a good job at work, or solve a mystery. It's always OR, it's never AND. Male protags tend to have multiple goals; they want it all. Female protags tend to settle for half, if that.
It says something about how many writers see women, and what they expect a woman to do.
7) The heroine is defined as being good, compassionate, virtuous, nurturing, kind, loving, healing and nonviolent because she's female--even if her personality is the exact opposite. To me, that's as bad as saying that the character HAS to be weak and ignorant and incapable because she's a woman. I don't see any reason to define people by stereotype just because they have two X chromosomes. (Or one X and one Y, for that matter.)
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Date: 2008-03-15 05:40 pm (UTC)Female pros tend to have signifigant others in one of two categories:
1.) normal
2.) not normal
If an FP's SO is 1 then his name is Bob, or Larry, or Tim & he works at an office doing something with numbers (FP doesn't really know or care what). He's not very clever but he's very sweet & earnest. He doesn't know about FP's real work, because after all he's her link to the normal world.
If an FP's SO is 2 then his name is Falco, or Draven, or Krys (pronounced Chris but spelled different for no appearent reason). He's mysterious, a genius, a smoking hot bad boy. He's rich but never works. He's immortal and you know that because he always wears the same out-dated clothes. He's trying to lure the FP into his world.
If an FP is witty, attractive, kick-ass, intelligent, powerful... Why would this woman be interested in just some random guy? Doesn't she want to be with someone who's her equal? Or why would she want to be with someone she knows she has no future with? Someone who looked down on her?
Who we spend our time with tells about who we are. It tells what we think about ourselves and our worth.
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Date: 2008-03-15 06:47 pm (UTC)Things I hate about female protagonists as they are often written, and bear in mind I edit shared world written primarily by men:
- Female protagonists that have to have a love interest to sell the book.
- Doing the same job as a man - with bonus stupid (ie, a soldier, and a talented one, who has ascended the ranks above private and flips her shit at the sight of blood, because really: she wouldn't have been promoted.
- Invisible motivation! (I edit in cat macros a lot.) Especially when the Invisible Motivation! leads her to do things like pander to her male love interest.
- Fainting, flailing, and otherwise Being A Girl.
- Going too far the other direction, we have: so kick-ass that no one can touch that and she knows it and brags about it. The bragging is the irritating part there. Your character might be overpowered if...sort of thing.
I really like and admire Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy series and the Paksenarrion trilogy from the standpoint of the main characters (the pov characters are pretty much exclusively female) and find them well written. Read those and contrast them with Bridget Jones' Diary for extra barfing potential.
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Date: 2008-03-17 09:32 pm (UTC)ETA: The above was my kneejerk response written before actually reading any of the other comments. Now that I have, I note that others have covered my points in much better detail. I second the recs for Phedre no Delauney and the magnificent Cordelia Vorkosigan as examples of heroines written right, and would like to add one for Mercy Thompson from Blood Bound / Moon Called / Iron Kissed by Patricia Briggs -- she's having the being-chased-by-two-men issue, but I give her credit for having real reason to want to chase both off (rather than the ishy kinds of reasons created in romance novels to give the heroine an excuse to drag her feet until bowled over by their charms), for refusing to let either of them take over and boss her around for the standard "Me Tarzan, you Jane" reasons (even though they try), and for enjoying being what she is without IIRC ever wishing she was human.
You know, just writing a heroine who hasn't got a love interest and doesn't want one -- or possibly one where the guy shows up and pursues her but she turns him down and doesn't wind up with him in the end -- would do fairly well in terms of subverting stereotypes.
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Date: 2008-03-18 07:23 pm (UTC)