apocalypsos: (bitch down)
[personal profile] apocalypsos
... which I know I've asked before, but I'm brainstorming so what the hell?

See, I'm kind of desperate to write a book with a female protagonist. (Well, one that works out, anyway -- I'm still trying to get the ones I'm working on now to either keep going or get started in the first place.) And I keep writing down things I've absolutely hated when it came to the last few female protagonists I've read, like when they're torn between two handsome men (oh, boo fucking hoo).

What don't you like in a female protagonist? I mean, there are some very well-written books out there focusing on women but there are so many out there where something about the way they're written always manages to rub me the wrong way. (See: Anita Blake having sex with anything that moves, Betsy Taylor being a spoiled shoe addict, any superpowered female character who makes neverending puns about their paranormal status, etc.)

Date: 2008-03-14 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vega-ofthe-lyre.livejournal.com
Heroines who don't think they deserve their love interest. Really insecure ones. I mean, sure, it's realistic, but tough it up, girls! You're worth it! He's not fit to lick your shoes!

Date: 2008-03-14 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] squee1123.livejournal.com
Bella from Twilight, for example. That girl makes me want to punch things. Edward is NOT that much of a catch. He's controlling and jealous and...IRRITATING.

I'm not even sure Jacob is a catch but hes sure as heck better than Edward.

Date: 2008-03-15 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vega-ofthe-lyre.livejournal.com
That's exactly the example I was thinking of. That book sends me into a blind rage, because seriously? A whole generation of reading teenaged girls is looking up to this character? A girl who feels so freaking inferior to the guy she's in love with? Self esteem issues ahoy!

Date: 2008-03-15 01:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] manynames.livejournal.com
Seconding - thirding? - this. Bella drives me insane. If you've not read the Twilight books, [livejournal.com profile] trollprincess it might almost be worth it as research on how not to write a female main character. All the male characters want her, she is unbelievably passive and whiny and she thinks her boyfriend is this amazing catch when he treats her like a stupid child without the capability of deciding to take risks for herself.

(If you do want to read them reply to this and I'll upload them)

Date: 2008-03-14 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rowanberries.livejournal.com
When everyone makes a point of talking about how kind and empathic and 'human' they are when none of their actual actions bear this out.

*Twitches*

I like a bitch as much as anyone. It's the hypocrites I can't take.

Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
I whole-heartedly and vocally second this.

Date: 2008-03-14 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com
Nods..that very Marysue problem of trying to give the heroine something unimportant to whine about...like her love life. That and when half the problems in her life are her own damn fault for having the common sense of a cardboard cut-out, like the Shopaholic books.

Date: 2008-03-14 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vega-ofthe-lyre.livejournal.com
Ugh, ditto on the Shopaholic books. I mean, I want to see the movie, because so far the set pics have looked adorable, but... she is incredibly annoying.

Date: 2008-03-14 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stitched-scars.livejournal.com
The ones where they're always talking about wanting a significant other, and about other people having lovers. Sure, talking about it a bit makes sense. But entire novels devoted to "catching a man"? *shudders*

Or the ones that are all about how all men suck. Or everyone else sucks! And poor, pitiful, unloved protagonist who no one understands.

But well, I don't think there's much of a worry of you writing a book with either of those kinds of protagonist!

Date: 2008-03-14 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stitched-scars.livejournal.com
Change 'who' for 'whom' please.. I wish I could edit comments!

Date: 2008-03-14 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xturtle.livejournal.com
My biggest peeve, which seems echoed above, is women who can't stop talking about men. If it doesn't meet the Bechdel test, I generally don't enjoy it.

Date: 2008-03-14 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neonhummingbird.livejournal.com
A female protagonist who constantly lets her emotions override her judgment, and we're supposed to accept it as proof of how compassionate and wonderful she is, when I really just want to smack her upside the head and tell her to get over it and start thinking. (First-season Gwen on Torchwood is my prime example, but there have been others.)

Date: 2008-03-14 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apiphile.livejournal.com
Things I dislike:

1. Mary-Sueishness. I don't mean women can't kick ass, obviously, I just mean characters who aren't allowed to fail or fuck up, or who must always be heroic rather than having negative traits like greed or selfishness that are PRESENTED as negative traits.

2. Women who are sexual always being portrayed as fucked up around sex or in entrenched relationships - there are very few happily promiscuous women in fiction and I think that's not really representative.

3. For examples of female characters I really DO like, see Sarah Lumb (Regeneration Trilogy), Eddy Sung (Drawing Blood), and Rose (Sandman).

Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wtfbrain.livejournal.com
When the heroine* keeps angsting about how she never wanted to be Sooper Speshul, and woe is her, she just wants a normal life and be human like everyone else. Especially if she was born the way she is and has never actually known what a "normal life" would be like.

*Actually, the hero, too, but since we're talking about female characters...

Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] impertinence.livejournal.com
honestly?

I just like women who are people first and women second. I don't like reading stereotypes. An author can sell me on almost any personality trait or situation, if it's honest and not just a carbon copy of an identifiable stereotype/trope.
Edited Date: 2008-03-14 09:09 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-03-14 10:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 20thcenturyvole.livejournal.com
I just like women who are people first and women second.

Please imagine me nodding frantically. I've always been intensely annoyed when people make my genitals the most important thing about me. I mean, speaking personally, I'd love to see a female character who's like a gritty, stoic John Wayne cowboy - y'know, without all the other characters going, "Gasp! She's so gritty and stoic! How unusual in a woman!"

Date: 2008-03-14 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yud.livejournal.com
Ones where no matter how smart and self-sufficient the heroine is, she's not "complete" until she has a man to prop her up/tell her what to do.

Date: 2008-03-14 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] faith21.livejournal.com
Yes, exactly. I don't mind some wading through relationships, but must every book end with a ring or romantic airport scene?

Date: 2008-03-14 09:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seferin.livejournal.com
What don't you like in a female protagonist?

I don't like it where female = weak or sex crazed.

Del from the Sword Dancer series (Jennifer Roberson) is an example of a strong woman. She is just as capable as the male protagonist, and while the first book did deal with sexism, afterwards, it was less of an issue.

While women are different, it shouldn't mean weak. Kitara from DragonLance, Sookie Stackhouse (Charlaine Harris) both deal with the undead, without simpering. Georgina Kincaid (Richelle Mead), Eden Moore (Cherie Priest) deal with the supernatural and have abilities...

Its about not insulting our intelligence, or women in general.

Cordelia Vorkosigan is a perfect example. Capable, deals with a male dominated society, makes them adjust to her, but is not a Mary Sue. Honor Harrington, in the beginning was a good example, before she became infected with MS.
Edited Date: 2008-03-14 09:22 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-03-14 09:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caseylane.livejournal.com
When they are "ball busters". I love strong women but I don't want her to tell me how strong she is, or have everyone else around her tell me how strong she is. If you make the character strong without commenting on it I'll still know she's strong.

I like when the women have some doubts but not be ignorant of their skills. I don't want to listen to her boo hoo about things when we know that she's more than capable and that she should know that by now (a sure sign she's stupid). Make her doubts be about other things.

Don't let her be the most beautiful. Let her best friend or business partner be stunning while she's still attractive. Don't let her be the most intelligent but surround herself by intelligent people. (Unless you want her to be the genius in which case you've got a lot of work to do to make her likable).

Just my 25 cents worth.

Date: 2008-03-14 09:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anenko.livejournal.com
I'm a lot of the paranormal (romance) novels I've read, the heroine is raped or sexually assaulted before gaining her supernatural powers. I hate that so, so much.

Heroines who are so pure and kind that they end up looking ignorant as to the way the world works. Or the heroines who develop some supernatural skill, but spend the entire novel whining about how it isn't possible to be such-and-such.

Date: 2008-03-14 09:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scary-being-me.livejournal.com
Ok, some things I dislike:

1) Overly emotional. Yes, women are more empathic than men. We get it. That doesn't measn they need to be ruled by their emotions.

2) Women who are the protagonist; but always need saved by the guy.

3) When everything is the guy's fault. Always. Even when he's out of the country.

4) Constantly angsting over her relationship or lack thereof or guys in general.

5) Overly obsessed with clothes/shoes/makeup/worldly goods.

6) If she's Barbie perfect. A good character has faults.

7) If she's a total prude or a complete slut.

8) Laura K. Hamilton is guilty of this one: The protagonist does as many stupid things as possible and somehow doesn't die.

9) Drama Queen/professional martyr.



Date: 2008-03-14 10:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penknife.livejournal.com
Endlessly talking about her appearance/clothes. It is not any more attractive or cute when it's "Oh, gosh, I don't know why anyone thinks I'm pretty, just because I'm a size 6 and wear a D cup and have perfect porcelain skin and violet eyes, and I never usually get dressed up, I just threw on this crimson silk tank top with these black jeans and black high-heeled pumps that show off my tanned ankles, not that I care about that kind of thing. Oh, we haven't even started talking about how I outlined my eyes just a tiny bit to reveal their violetness!" Only with more brand names thrown in.

I have slightly more tolerance for it with historical heroines, both because I know the author has to remind the reader that no one is wearing jeans, and because I have kind of a kink for historical costume porn, but in modern stuff? She's wearing clothes and either wearing makeup or not, OMG let's move on.

Date: 2008-03-14 10:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com
I'm currently reading one with a schizophrenic prostitute as one of the main characters and getting sick of her. She hears voices or some shit and stabs people a lot. I'm sure it's meant to make her tragic, but it just pisses me off.

When the female protagonist/character is so obviously just the writer's fantasy woman, without any resemblence to reality or real females anywhere.

And I know this isn't constructive but just... blatant mary-sueness. And I mean blatant.

Okay, and yeah, cos I read fantasy, you get a lot of "Puppet men with super-powerful scheming women behind them pulling the strings" misogynist cliche shit and that makes me really angry.

Date: 2008-03-14 10:45 pm (UTC)
sabotabby: raccoon anarchy symbol (fuck patriarchy)
From: [personal profile] sabotabby
- Becoming weak as soon as the male love interest is introduced.

- Unrealistic hotness, or kicking ass in unrealistic clothes. (Buffy did a nice subversion of this with "I go patrolling in this halter top all the time!") I'm okay with women kicking ass, and I'm okay with women in skin-tight leather catsuits and heels, but I'm not okay with women kicking ass while wearing skin-tight leather catsuits and heels.

- Over-the-top religiousity.

- Hot chicks who can't get laid because they have glasses or something. That always annoys me.

I also get annoyed when every single female protagonist has to be pretty and twenty-something. I've got a real hankering to read about some middle-aged heroines, courtesy of The Sarah Jane Smith Adventures and The New Moon's Arms.

Date: 2008-03-14 10:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com
Another thing I hate about superpowered women characters is when RL just disappears for them after they get the powers. I want to see someone save the world, then get groceries, come home and do some housework, and go to bed because they have to be at work at 7.

Date: 2008-03-14 11:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com
Seriously! It's one of the things that drove me away from Buffy. It's one thing if the plot is loser nobody gets swept up into some super-secret organization and is suddenly living the pampered life where little details get taken care of while you do Important Things. Secret identity stuff means you have to do everything you did before...and heroing too!

Date: 2008-03-14 11:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] apocalypsos.livejournal.com
Ooo, yes, exactly. (Although with Buffy, I think I was more bothered by the fact that the Watchers never paid her a salary so she didn't have to go out and get dumb jobs after leaving college. You only have one Slayer at a time, you have to train them, you want them to devote all their damn time to this calling, you think you might ... oh, I don't know, PAY THEM.)

Date: 2008-03-14 11:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com
That was really stupid. Didnt' Joss fanwank that in an interview about Buffy and Giles both being renegades from the Council by that point? Eh. There was a great fic with Faith confronting Giles about the Mayor being the one to get her out of motel hell. But hell, Buffy had two 'job' episodes where her working was wink-nudge the joke...Xander's construction site and Doublemeat Palace...and then the money issues just went away magically. Only not the kind of magic where Willow did a spell for a credit card tree in the yard or something.

Date: 2008-03-14 11:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angry-geologist.livejournal.com
I can't stand female protagonists who:

1) Are not self-sufficient and do nothing to improve their situation.
2) Are self-sufficient, but spend the whole damn book pining away for twu wuv.
3) Are self-sufficient, but give it all up for a flimsy premise of twu wuv.

Date: 2008-03-14 11:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] opportunemoment.livejournal.com
Essentially as everyone else has said, with especial reference to the ones where it's pointed out, all the bloody time, how ballsy and awesome she is.

I don't have a problem with women kicking seven kinds of superathletic arse out of their enemies, I don't even have a problem with them doing it in slightly silly clothes if it's a fantasy. But I hate when everything the character does is commented on as 'and isn't this cool that she can do this even though she's a woman!'

You can address the gender issues (if you want to) without bashing the reader around the head with them. Or you can not bother, that's fine too!

I've kinda started twitching just at the mention of how awesome kick-arse heroines are and how much we love strong women characters - because, should that not be obvious? Why are they inherently more interesting than kick-arse heroes? (Unless it's historical in which case there would be a bit more sneaking around and manouvering of large skirts which can be quite interesting.)

Ever read the Eyre Affair and its sequels? They're by Jasper Fforde, and a) they are hilarious and brilliant and b) they feature Thursday Next, who is a really great herone. Cop, book-lover, croquet-player, dimension-hopper, eventually wife and mother, and without ever getting annoying. It's just... she loves her family and she shoots at bad guys, both of those are taken as an absolute given. No flag-waving.

(In the most recent one, First Among Sequels - which I'm afraid would probably make no sense if read on its own - she encounters two fictionalised versions of herself from the novelisations of her life. One is a ball-busting bitch in black leather with a rampant sex drive and no morals, and the other is a hippie who does yoga and just wants to give the bad guys a hug. They're equally irritating.)

Date: 2008-03-14 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] squee1123.livejournal.com
definitely the Oh Poor Me thing. Whether its about having to choose between two guys or becasue she's some werewolf/vampire/thing.

Just...in general...half-things irritate me. half-demon, half-angel, half-fairy, half-whatthefuckever. halfsies just drives me up a wall.

Um. Okay. What else irritates me about female characters? Oh. Supposedly strong female characters who suddenly meet some guy and fall head over heels and...really aren't very strong anymore.

Date: 2008-03-15 01:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natmerc.livejournal.com
When the main female character is a complete an utter bitch -- mean, vindictive, etc., and yet the author clearly believes that she's this goddess of virtue and the model that everyone should emulate.

I have no trouble with having the main character be a bitch, but use it, don't either ignore it or justify it.

Date: 2008-03-15 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trishalynn.livejournal.com
I'll answer this by telling you about two female heroines that I like:

Eve Dallas: From the In Death series of futuristic/mystery/romance novels by J.D. Robb (pseudonym for Nora Roberts, one of the best-selling romance authors of the modern age), Eve is a tough, NYC lieutenant in the Homicide division. She started out as a ball-buster and a real bitch, but--

Okay, yes, she started to change into a more well-rounded person once she found a really hot, rich, Irishman to love her and show her the meaning of togetherness, but it wasn't easy for them. And oh, Christ, she had also been systematically sexually abused as a kid, and yes, with the help of twu wuv, she started to get over it...

I'm not making a good case, am I? Let's do an analysis:

The problem with ball-busters is that that no one wants to empathize with them because they can get so mean and unlikable. Eve found someone to accept her for who she was, warts and all, and that's what started the change. Other things that helped were her starting to reach out to other people in her life, including her eventual new partner, a "hippie" cop who showed Eve the value in different kinds of female friendship. And there was the police psychologist who saw something in Eve and really worked towards breaking down her emotional defenses by becoming the mother-figure she never had. One of the things that I loved from the recent books is that the psychologist said that if she'd continued her ball-busting ways, she would have eventually cracked and burned out as a detective because the work she does is very emotionally disturbing. And it was reaching out to other people and admitting that she needed other people (not just her hot, rich, Irishman--did I mention that he was phenomenally rich?) in her life to become a more complete human.

So that's why I like Eve: she's strong, but can admit her weaknesses.

Phedre no Delauney: From the Kushiel's Dart series of fantasy novels set in an alternate Europe by Jaqueline Carey, she has some of the hallmarks of being a Mary Sue. Sold by her parents into indentured servitude in the "whorehouse" where her mother trained (but think Firefly-type courtesans, y'know?), she has a special gift from the gods that makes her feel pleasure and pain as one. Yes, our heroine is a masochist. But then a rich nobleman saw the gift and bought her servitude and trained her to be a spy. So yes, very Mary Sue.

But for some reason, I never think it's annoying when she can almost instantly tell when someone's lying to her, because she was trained to learn those things--like Bruce Wayne, y'know? If I can accept that Bruce Wayne was able to learn all those things, I can accept that this daughter of a temple prostitute can do the same as well. Because it's all about the alternate realm they live in where the one precept that everyone lives by is "Love as thou wilt." She loved her benefactor, and thus learned all she could for him. (It also doesn't hurt that there was a foster brother to her who was also learning the same things at the same time, so it's not like she was totally special.) She can't fight well, but she can fuck well, and that, too is acceptable because it's what she learned in the house before her benefactor "bought" her.

Phedre messes up a lot, and gets herself into trouble, and yes, her eventual handsome (btw, everyone in the country is so freaking beautiful, but that's a function of them being descended from angels, okay?) kickass bodyguard/consort saves her a lot, but she also saves herself many times, too, due to her training. God-marked as she is, she also uses human intuition to get by, and that's likable.

So I guess my one overwhelming reason why I like both these women is that they're human. Which means that I dislike female protagonists who are not.
Edited Date: 2008-03-15 01:41 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-03-15 05:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] escritoireazul.livejournal.com
I've been rereading the Sookie Stackhouse books lately, and there are some things which drive me crazy.

+ The casual judgments Sookie makes about all other women based on their sexuality. I'm pretty sure this is more the author revealing her prejudices about non-mainstream, vanilla sexual expressions than an actual choice about the character's personality, because I noticed this is another of her book series, too, but either way, it drives me absolutely crazy. Just about all other women are shown to be absolute whores if they don't want to settle down and get married and only have sex with one man ever.

+ Sookie's obsession with getting married. It always ALWAYS goes like this. Living in sin, can't get married because it's not legal, Bill hasn't asked her anyway. Almost verbatim, every single time.

+ All the guys want her. (A la Anita Blake.) And she doesn't see it. And when someone points it out to her, she denies it.

+ She knows she's attractive. She says she knows she's attractive. And yet she still looks to the menfolk for confirmation of this fact.

+ The fangbanger thing, where anyone who wants to be around the vampires is a simpering, slutty idiot. God, Sookie is SO judgmental.

Date: 2008-03-15 07:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gehayi.livejournal.com
I recommend [livejournal.com profile] limyaael's rants on Writing Female Protagonists That Do Not Suck (http://www.forresterlabs.com/limyaael/rant33610), Heroines Done Wrong (http://limyaael.livejournal.com/194599.html),and Interesting Heroines (http://limyaael.livejournal.com/378823.html).

For myself...what do I hate with female protagonists?

1) Everyone loves them, except for the bad guys. I'm a perverse soul. A character that everyone loves and that the author blatantly wants me to love makes me want to drop kick the character over a goal-post. It's like being back in high school and being told about the sheer wonderfulness of the cheerleaders. I was one of those girls who wasn't friends with the cheerleaders, and who wasn't part of their little group. Relentlessly adored characters affect me the same way. I will go out of my way to analyze and critique them. Believe me.

2) The character insists that she's ugly when she's not; or, conversely, she complains that she's TOO beautiful. Or TOO thin. Characters like this always make me want to compel them to work with people with birth defects and disabilities for a while, just to make them quit their bitching. If it's sincere lack of self-esteem, I get annoyed; if it's a case of the author trying to get me to say, "Oh, no, no, you're not flawed at ALL!" about her li'l avatar...well, I get even more annoyed.

3) The female protagonist never does anything, or only does something if accompanied by the male protagonist/is the love interest. Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake and Merry Gentry are guilty of this. Anita makes a lot of noise about feminism, but as near as I can tell, she doesn't do anything but fuck everything that's male, whether it's alive or undead (species and age unimportant), occasionally beat up the bad guys, and go back to fucking again. She hasn't done her Federal Marshall job in years (not that LKH ever researched that anyway), and despite all of her nominal positions as the head of this and the master of that, she never gives the impression that she spends any time politicking, negotiating, compromising, or doing anything, in fact, beyond being the St. Louis bicycle. Merry started out as a paranormal P.I. of fairy descent--now she's trying to procreate her way into queenship.

I'm sure that "feminism" does not mean "fucking your way to the top."

Give me heroines who are capable without being uber-powered, and who actually have existences apart from their love and sex lives.

Stopping here; will pick up in next post.
Edited Date: 2008-03-15 07:47 am (UTC)

Part 2

Date: 2008-03-15 08:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gehayi.livejournal.com
4) The character does something that would be considered wrong if done by the bad guys but, because she is the female protagonist/pet of the author, it's considered perfectly all right. Hermione in HP is guilty of this. [livejournal.com profile] montavilla described her here (http://community.livejournal.com/deadlyhollow/13804.html?thread=438508#t438508) this way:

"At thirteen, she was brewing polyjuice, stealing hairs from children, and using both to spy on her enemies.
At fifteen, she kidnapped and blackmailed a journalist.
At sixteen, she started an underground army of underage warriors, and facially scarred the "traitor" to the group. She also blackmailed the journalist again, strongarming the press to print her propaganda. On the fly, she came up with a plan to use centaurs to punish a hated rival to her rise to power.
At seventeen, she interrupted her plans for world domination to attack her true love with canaries.
At eighteen, she masterminded the overthrow of the current dark lord, and, along the way, she broke into the Ministry of Magic and Gringott's (unbreak-into-able) Bank. She also successfully rid herself of her inconvenient parents (and without bloodshed!)"

Now, I don't mind Hermione doing bad stuff. I don't mind ANY protagonist doing bad things. I do, however, mind that she never gets chewed out or punished or suffers the slightest adverse consequence for her actions. I expect in-character actions to result in in-character consequences.

5) Soul-bonding. This is the laziest shortcut to romance ever, and I hate it. Good grief, I can't think of anything WORSE than to be bonded to someone for eternity. What if you change? What if he or she changes? Do you have any privacy left? What if you're bonded to one another and you don't LIKE each other?

6) The female protagonist isn't as complex as the male protagonist. This is common, unfortunately. The female protag usually has only one thing to do--find her true love, or do a good job at work, or solve a mystery. It's always OR, it's never AND. Male protags tend to have multiple goals; they want it all. Female protags tend to settle for half, if that.

It says something about how many writers see women, and what they expect a woman to do.

7) The heroine is defined as being good, compassionate, virtuous, nurturing, kind, loving, healing and nonviolent because she's female--even if her personality is the exact opposite. To me, that's as bad as saying that the character HAS to be weak and ignorant and incapable because she's a woman. I don't see any reason to define people by stereotype just because they have two X chromosomes. (Or one X and one Y, for that matter.)

Date: 2008-03-15 05:40 pm (UTC)
ext_21576: (danny pink)
From: [identity profile] trcunning.livejournal.com
My main pet peeve about female protagonists is that they aways seem to be surrounded by cardboard cut-outs.

Female pros tend to have signifigant others in one of two categories:
1.) normal
2.) not normal

If an FP's SO is 1 then his name is Bob, or Larry, or Tim & he works at an office doing something with numbers (FP doesn't really know or care what). He's not very clever but he's very sweet & earnest. He doesn't know about FP's real work, because after all he's her link to the normal world.

If an FP's SO is 2 then his name is Falco, or Draven, or Krys (pronounced Chris but spelled different for no appearent reason). He's mysterious, a genius, a smoking hot bad boy. He's rich but never works. He's immortal and you know that because he always wears the same out-dated clothes. He's trying to lure the FP into his world.

If an FP is witty, attractive, kick-ass, intelligent, powerful... Why would this woman be interested in just some random guy? Doesn't she want to be with someone who's her equal? Or why would she want to be with someone she knows she has no future with? Someone who looked down on her?

Who we spend our time with tells about who we are. It tells what we think about ourselves and our worth.

Date: 2008-03-15 06:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] channonyarrow.livejournal.com
Editor powers ACTIVATE!

Things I hate about female protagonists as they are often written, and bear in mind I edit shared world written primarily by men:
- Female protagonists that have to have a love interest to sell the book.
- Doing the same job as a man - with bonus stupid (ie, a soldier, and a talented one, who has ascended the ranks above private and flips her shit at the sight of blood, because really: she wouldn't have been promoted.
- Invisible motivation! (I edit in cat macros a lot.) Especially when the Invisible Motivation! leads her to do things like pander to her male love interest.
- Fainting, flailing, and otherwise Being A Girl.
- Going too far the other direction, we have: so kick-ass that no one can touch that and she knows it and brags about it. The bragging is the irritating part there. Your character might be overpowered if...sort of thing.

I really like and admire Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy series and the Paksenarrion trilogy from the standpoint of the main characters (the pov characters are pretty much exclusively female) and find them well written. Read those and contrast them with Bridget Jones' Diary for extra barfing potential.

Date: 2008-03-17 09:32 pm (UTC)
fyrdrakken: (Ace)
From: [personal profile] fyrdrakken
Agreed to being averse to stories in which the heroine is torn between two hot men (especially if it's a book with an actual plot into which the romance was shoehorned and is taking up far too much textspace and attention -- a book supposedly written for a genre that isn't romance, that is to say, as opposed to one that's being shelved with the Harlequins anyway) or to the ones where she spends her time angsting over paranormal abilities and whining about wanting to be normal. I discovered another source of annoyance in Rachel Caine's Weather Warden books, which are largely wonderful but annoyed me with the heroine's Obligatory Feminine Personality Quirk of being supposedly a fashion goddess. Her taste for muscle cars was great, her fixation on shoes was annoying -- but at least she had appropriate issues when her older sister showed up on her doorstep after her rich husband dumped her and screwed her in the divorce settlement.

ETA: The above was my kneejerk response written before actually reading any of the other comments. Now that I have, I note that others have covered my points in much better detail. I second the recs for Phedre no Delauney and the magnificent Cordelia Vorkosigan as examples of heroines written right, and would like to add one for Mercy Thompson from Blood Bound / Moon Called / Iron Kissed by Patricia Briggs -- she's having the being-chased-by-two-men issue, but I give her credit for having real reason to want to chase both off (rather than the ishy kinds of reasons created in romance novels to give the heroine an excuse to drag her feet until bowled over by their charms), for refusing to let either of them take over and boss her around for the standard "Me Tarzan, you Jane" reasons (even though they try), and for enjoying being what she is without IIRC ever wishing she was human.

You know, just writing a heroine who hasn't got a love interest and doesn't want one -- or possibly one where the guy shows up and pursues her but she turns him down and doesn't wind up with him in the end -- would do fairly well in terms of subverting stereotypes.
Edited Date: 2008-03-17 09:48 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-03-18 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seren-mercury.livejournal.com
I'm not sure if this was on anyone else's list but I hate it when the heroine, or just female lead of any story refuses to listen. You tell her don't go charging into the battle just yet wait, and because she is woman and strong she does and messes with everyone's well thought out plans. A truly strong, confident character can be wrong, and can concede to others when their expertise outweighs her own.

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