OW GODDAMN IT.

[apocalypsos]

I'm really bothered by the implication that it's sexist that the writers had Mary giving up hunting to marry John. It's much the same way I feel when people imply you lose feminist cred for deciding to become a housewife. And it bothers me that it's okay when Sam abandons hunting for a normal life but sexist when Mary does it.

It's not like Mary giving up hunting to marry John and have the boys makes her any less kickass. Hell, with only a few minutes of screentime over the last three seasons, it's been fanon and canon since the start that Mary is kickass. I mean, she hung on as a shade in her own house, for Pete's sake. For all that her death is the thing that started this whole story, the fact is that she's never really been written as weak, not even by writers who have a touch-and-go history with their female characters, unless you consider a female character having a family as weak.

I have no problem calling something on any sexist tones, but I don't really have a problem with Mary making a decision to step away from hunting for a quiet life with John. In fact, I'm really uncomfortable with the idea that she doesn't get to make her own choices about her life unless it's "saving people, hunting things ... the family business."

*

Points at random:

-- It's really nice to see that sometime in the next few years Daphne stops engaging in her two favorite pastimes, chewing scenery and mugging unapologetically.

-- Okay, who wants a crack theory? Because my newest crack theory is that Noah somehow manages to redeem Sylar right before someone with weird abilities de-ages him and that's the kid Sylar turned into Mr. Cleaver for. Hell, it'd certainly explain Claire being pissed that Sylar stole everything of hers. He even stole her de-aged pint-sized sarcastic father.

God, how much do I love that I finally have a fandom where I can throw out flaming piles of bullshit like that and it's actually possible they're true?

-- Where do they put Molly so she doesn't age for four years? Is there some sort of giant freezer at Super-Gitmo I should be aware of?

-- Ha! Mohinder's turning into a lizard. Or possibly a gecko. Well, at least when this whole supposedly-being-brainier-than-everybody-else thing inevitably falls through he can still sell car insurance to pay the bills.

-- Man, this show's awful. I mean, I've said it before and I've meant it but every once in a while it has to be mentioned once again. For the good of mankind and puppies and rainbows, you see. I'm sure you understand.

-- You know, on one hand, I think I love the thought of quiet stay-at-home dad Gabriel who's the president's brother and makes pancakes and is an awesome dad, and on the other hand there's got to be a scourge of Sylar fangirls out there screeching, "SEE?! SEE?! I TOLD YOU SYLAR WAS A PRINCE AMONG MEN!" while writing fanfic where Sylar manages to marry the entire cast and get sainted all at once.

-- I like Tracy. I like Tracy and Nathan together. I find this odd, since as a couple they combine two of the majorly overused plot devices this show goes to the well for time and time again -- being a Petrelli, and being played by Ali Larter. I'm pretty sure the flash forward in which Ali Larter was actually playing a Petrelli is quite possibly your official Heroes Moment of Zen.

*

Also, this makes me weep for the future. And it also makes me want to find the poor prospective adoptive parents and offer to be a surrogate.

I need to call the dentist tomorrow and get an appointment to see about my teeth. This constant throbbing pain is freaking ridiculous.

Comments

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

*see-saws hands* I can see both sides re: Mary. No, it shouldn't automatically be sexist that she wanted to be normal, and yet. With this show's recent history of not being able to see women as anything other than fulfilling traditional roles (Mary's badassery is largely a matter of fanon; "Home" happened in the first season), I can also see why people aren't willing to give the show that benefit of the doubt any longer. Maybe if we had been shown that Mary wanted to do anything other than have a quiet life with John, even if it turned out that she had a secret passion for court reporting.

[telaryn.livejournal.com]

While I do agree with you that people are losing the ability to give Kripke et al the benefit of the doubt, particularly in light of last season - I really don't think that was in play here.

Go back and watch Mary's confession scene. What *I* took from it (and I was one of the disgruntled feminist fans from last season) was that it was supposed to draw a parallel between Mary's hopes and the hopes Dean expressed on and off through S2 and S3.

I think the show has been *very* consistent in showing Dean as his mother's son and Sam as his father's. That also plays into the idea that Dean was closer to John - psychologically he pretty much became the maternal figure of the family after her death.

They were also very careful not to go into too many specifics about what Mary considered a "quiet" life - just that it didn't involve hunting. Again this is a sentiment Dean has expressed frequently - for all that he embraces his chosen lifestyle, you can tell he really feels the loss of a normal "quiet" existence.

The fact that it was 1973, and traditional roles were still very much in play is history at work - not the writers deliberate intent.

Just my opinion...

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, it's about patterns. There's on SPN over the last season and change of women not having anything that resembles an adult career, unless that career is chaos and evil. So when Mary wants nothing more than to live a quiet life with John, and no mention is made that quiet life means more than being a housewife? I don't give Kripke that benefit of the doubt any longer. I would have been nodding along with you about them simply showing Dean to be Mary's on if it had taken place in S1 or S2 where there were other women being heroic and having careers and being multi-dimensional people, but that's not how Kripke plays the game any longer.

As to historical verisimilitude, well. We're talking '73. That's ten years after The Feminine Mystique. That's five years after '68 and the apex of counter-culture. That's right in the middle of second-wave feminism. Even for semi-rural Kansas, I would expect a young woman Mary's age to at least be having conversations with herself about that kind of push-pull. All that it would have taken was a line or two, a textbook on a dresser, to show that the writers realized it, too.

It was still an altogether well-written episode, and I love that we can now compare the Winchesters to Greek tragedy without stretching too much. It certainly wasn't anywhere near as bad as last season. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.

[titti]

Re Mary: I don't know if it's sexist. I tend to think that it's bad writing. She went from Mary the vampire slayer to whine, whine whine, which retrospectively it's what Buffy did in season 3 and 6. I think the sudden shift was what annoyed me.

Re Heroes: It's really awful, but it makes me laugh.

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure the flash forward in which Ali Larter was actually playing a Petrelli is quite possibly your official Heroes Moment of Zen.


THIS!

[squee1123.livejournal.com]

Ahaha. That was my sister that posted about the baby. Don't worry. The baby gets a happy ending. But my sister is right beside me and she's demanding that I not spoil the ending because she's posting it RIGHT NOW.


Also, as for daddy!Gabe. I had the exact thought about de-aged Noah but I'm just desperately hoping not. And then I get just SO depressed when I think about what happened to little Noah.

I'm a Sylar fan. I kinda screeched "SEE! HE CAN BE GOOD". It makes me really wonder if it ISN'T Noah de-aged, who the heck is the mom?

[frikatilhi.livejournal.com]

Have I missed something, or do we know that Mary was a housewife? Why couldn't she have a kick-ass job? And isn't it good that she had the choice to do what SHE wanted, and not pressured into a life she didn't want?

[kurukami.livejournal.com]

Okay, who wants a crack theory? Because my newest crack theory is that Noah somehow manages to redeem Sylar right before someone with weird abilities de-ages him and that's the kid Sylar turned into Mr. Cleaver for. Hell, it'd certainly explain Claire being pissed that Sylar stole everything of hers. He even stole her de-aged pint-sized sarcastic father.

I am already writing fic involving just this idea. *grin*

[killerweasel.livejournal.com]

The only reason I'm still watching the show is for Noah & Sylar. I've been trying to give a crap about the other characters, but just can't. Well... maybe Parkman. And Mr. Muggles (he counts as a character, right?).

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

My take on SPN right now... actually my take on the FANDOM right now is that for some people, the show can do no right *hands*

[amore-di-libri.livejournal.com]

Dude, Renesmee Bella Stephenie? WTF? I don't even know about the Twilight allusions, and that name sucks like rotten candy.

Renesmee? That's a name? Smee, like Cap'n Hook's Smee? WTF?

Sorry. That's it for my brain tonight.

[beanarie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the plot-holes in Heroes have gotten worse and worse, haven't they? Like, why do Peters from two distinctly different futures have the same scar? Didn't Monica still have the virus at the end of last year? Is Tracy going to die eventually, just as I quit hating her, in order to pass the torch to this Barbara? How hard would it have been for the producers to cast a fifteen year old actress to play future Molly? TOO MANY MYSTERIES.

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

Um, what? Mary rebelled against the patriarchal figure in her life, going against his direct wishes. Isn't that closer to "feminist"?

[bunnymcfoo.livejournal.com]

Being feminist has nothing to do with going against the direct wishes of the patriarchal figure in your life. Quite often, my actions run directly in tandem with my father's wishes for my life, and this in no way diminishes the fact that I'm a fairly radical feminist.

Feminism is complex and sprawling. This is actually a fairly decent overview of it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism), if you're interested in educating yourself. I've never yet run across the definition of "pouting child" which is how you pretty much make it sound in your comment. You know, in defying her daddy, Mary became a feminist.

I'm sorry, that's not how it works. Defying male expectations of us is key in being a feminist. Doing what is right for yourself because it's right for you is far more in keeping with most feminist philosophy than just defying the patriarchal figure in your life just because he's male is.


Admittedly, I am one of those angry feminists who stopped watching SPN. I haven't seen the episode, but in all honesty, this comment is more directed at the phrasing of your comment than anything else. For the record, it's no more acceptable to add quotation marks to feminist than it is to say that Ellen "married" Portia. It's demeaning, dismissive, and offensive.

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

Sorry, you're entirely right, I phrased it terribly. I didn't mean to cause offense. Being cranky at fans is no excuse.

[fyrdrakken]

Without having even seen last week's SPN ep yet (though I've downloaded it for whenever I finally get a weekend free to just sit around at home, which apparently is actually going to happen this time around), I'm theorizing based on the premise that leaning too heavily on the idea that feminism is about choices is failing to take into account the cultural and societal pressures making a lot of those "choices" less a matter of free will than claimed.

On the matter of Sam leaving hunting to be normal, I can't even remember whether the show was presenting it as Sam living the life that Dean's too broken to lead or as Sam being in denial of his heritage/family duties/role in the world. (Maybe a little of column B in the pilot, a little of column A in that ep where Dean saw the AU life where Mary lived?) So my not having seen the latest ep leaves me doubly unqualified to compare whether Mary's decision was presented as a return to desirable normalcy or as a suppression of her own personhood and agency to assume the subservient helpmate role.

I can only remark that in this general situation there is an unfortunate cultural trend towards pressuring women to giving up their careers and former interests for the sake of marriage and family that doesn't affect men as strongly, so that Sam giving up hunting for family has the advantage of being subversive in a way that Mary giving up hunting for family doesn't. (Though, hmm, Stanford-to-law-school + wife-and-kiddies isn't quite the same as staying-home-to-tend-to-house-and-babies anyway.)