So I've been thinking ...

[apocalypsos]

"Oh, well, I adore 'em... Except for the few sickos who write lesbian fan fiction about me and Bea Arthur." -- Betty White, Ugly Betty

"Meg, we have been over this before. You are going to gain 150 pounds and write Ugly Betty Fan Fiction." -- Peter, Family Guy

Alyson Hannigan's character on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (1997), Willow Rosenberg, once mentioned that she wrote "Doogie Howser, M.D." (1989) fanfiction as a girl. Hannigan went on to star in "How I Met Your Mother" (2005) with Neil Patrick Harris, who as a boy played Doogie Howser. -- From the HIMYM trivia section on IMDb.

And those were just the ones I found in five minutes of looking. Trust me, Hollywood knows people on the internet write fan fiction. And there's not going to be a flood of people getting sued or anything because Sam and Dean mentioning slash fanfic is not even close to the first time it's been brought up on a TV show. Deeeep breeeeaaaaaths.

I find the situation hilarious in both a laughing-AT-us and laughing-WITH-us mentality. 'Cause, really. We're ridiculous, and we know it. But this show LOVES us. I mean, seriously, they've known about slash fanfic since season one. (Hard not to, with dumber fans actually asking about it at cons.) How many gay jokes have they had since the beginning? They put these two in situations too homoerotic for ACTUAL GAY CHARACTERS to get into. This show has had a polite understanding with us for a looooooong time. "Go on, sweeties. Here's your subtext that's practically text. Write your porn. We don't want to read it, but hey, knock yourself out."

As for the cries of, "Oh, no, we can never write Wincest again!" ... really? REALLY? I have to sit down and write the other story idea I got while watching last night, which is that after reading about the slash fanfic, Sam prints some out with the intention of reading it. You know, for academic purposes. *ahem* And then when Dean leaves and tells him to watch some porn, the TV doesn't work and he does still have that story in his bag and LOOK ORGASM. Or how about, what with the "Winchester Gospel" being written by man and all, if later on after everything goes down, some of that slash fiction gets slipped into later editions and Sam and Dean (who've been gifted with an immortal life of hunting bad things or whatever for saving the world) keep having to explain that Sam and Dean were not fucking without explaining who they are, and one thing leads to another, and ... well.

In other words, your imaginations all still work. I have faith in your pornographic minds. And so, from the sounds of it, does the show.

Comments

[foenix.livejournal.com]

...

Seriously? People are saying they can never write their Wincest again?

THIS of all things is *stopping* them?? ;)

And oh gods, slashfic becoming like the apocryphal gospels of the Christian bible. That's brilliant.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Dude, this may be the first thing in a while that's actually inspired me to write more Wincest. It's a writing challenge! It's in the canon, now what?

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, the conversation they had about it could totally be seen as, "It's sick that these people online write gay incest fic about us, AND HOW DO THEY KNOW WE'RE DOING IT?!" if you look at it from the right angle.

*sigh* Why are my creative juices flowing with this and yet I can't get anything original written? Damn it. *grumbles*

[fyrdrakken]

Never mind original vs. fanfic here -- just write what you have the urge to write, and be thankful the creative juices are flowing at all.

[swimdraconian.livejournal.com]

By that reasoning, it means Wincest is Biblical canon. *snerk*

I love my fandom.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I think I love you for pointing that out. :D

[chaneen.livejournal.com]

People need to seriously get over themselves. I thought that scene was hilarious, tbh. They played it just enough to make it obvious that they were totally making fun of us, but with love or whatever at the same time. My only concern is that my mom, who watches the show, will decide she wants to ask me about slash, or something equally scarring for me.

Also, that sounds like a fantastic idea for a fic! It's times like these where I wish I had the "you should totally write that" icon. It would come in so handy.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

Yes. Everything you say - just, yes!

Sometimes fandom takes itself far too seriously.

I just wish I had the time and skills to write the fic where Dean just can't resist taking a look at the fanfic Sam was reading, and the idea just kind of grows on him until he decides to try it out and they have sex and it's really, really awkward but really hot at the same time...

Not sure I'm quite ready to explain Wincest to my 9 y.o. daughter, though. This will be one of the episodes she doesn't get to watch!

[azurelunatic]

I was struggling to keep my laughter and hyperventilation to levels that would not disturb my partners in TV-watching. We were *dying*. Man, that was awesome.

[telaryn.livejournal.com]

I find the situation hilarious in both a laughing-AT-us and laughing-WITH-us mentality. 'Cause, really. We're ridiculous, and we know it. But this show LOVES us.

THIS. I've actually been working on a meta-post this morning (*koff*insteadofmeetingminutes*koff*) about this very subject.

With a different tone, and without the infamous "wrap party" comment of Jensen's as a flawless lead-in, yeah...it would have been offensive and uncomfortable to watch.

What we got wasn't that, however. It was just the right amount of "yeah, we see what you guys are doing over there" and "you know you're sick puppies, right? We're okay with that...we just wanted to make sure you knew."

And I do. I mean come on - I'm a forty one year old mother of a teenager. I work in construction. How ridiculous and surreal is it that one of my greatest joys in life is writing about two fictional characters who *happen* to be brothers, and who in my world view *happen* to not be able to keep their hands off each other?

I'm okay with it, though. And I feel like last night my show said they're okay with me doing it.

As long as I don't make them read it, of course. Which...dude. I have been writing fanfiction long enough to have a firm grasp on at least *that* basic unwritten rule.

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

At Asylum in 2007, Jensen said Kim Manners had printed out Wincest for him and Jared. Kripke's been regarding TWOP forever.
Kripke knows about the things we do in the dark. He's fine with it. But are we?

[suaine.livejournal.com]

I think there's a lot of discomfort here from people who are slightly scared and weirded out by their own kinks. They haven't yet integrated that the fictional gay incest gets them hot with certain taboos and restrictions their lives and beliefs put on them. They just feel it, they haven't really properly thought about what that means, where their boundaries really are, and every time it gets dragged into the light it scares them.

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

Oh i totally agree with you. It does remind us that a lot of fanfiction (and in fact fanfction per se) sits far outside most societal norms.

What i think is well, cute almost, is that i get the sense that Kripke is sorta proud he has a "cult, underground tattooed fandom that writes gay incestuous porn".

[sassygirl.livejournal.com]

your icon! they're remaking No Heroics for US telly with Billy Campbell and Freddie Prinze Jr :(

[aerynvala.livejournal.com]

I had like half-a-second of "omg I'll never slash again!" when they mentioned slash on the show, and then I LOL'd and moved right on past it. It doesn't change anything for me really. Mostly my reaction was that horror of realizing the voidcamera was looking back at me.

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

Nah, I'm not gonna stop reading Wincest. I wrote Wincest maybe once (and even then it was a drabble), but this didn't kill my reading joy.

There is a precedence in what Supernatural did last night. The two only main characters were reading online message boards about fans who read and write and talk about a series of books that's really about them, only the books are horror harlequins and the fans write slash. They meet a badly concealed fangirl who has a tattoo in the manner of someone who actually got their tattoo, and in the message boards, an actual TWoPer is mentioned. this went on for pretty much the entire opening segment of the episode. Offbeat snidy little comments about fanfiction and LARP (which Role Models did much justice to) are one thing. This is a whole other level of industry-fans interaction that has made many many fans uncomfortable last night.

And it's true that Kripke doesn't mind putting Sam and Dean into insanely homoerotic situations in the show. Hell, four episodes ago, Dean met a siren who took on a male form, because apparently he wants-needs Sam more than heterosexual gratification. That's says a whole lot. Also *points to icon* I mean, that's Kripke's work.

I just think this whole boundary breaking was a little too much, too soon, too heavy-handed, is all.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

I just think this whole boundary breaking was a little too much, too soon, too heavy-handed, is all.

Very much so, yeah. They went for a jackhammer with a scalpel would worked much better.

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

Also, in that "obvs. laughing with you" way, having Chuck apologize for crap writing in Bugs and the ghost ship episode? GENIUS.

We are all clearly nuts up in here, but we're kinda all in it together too. I like that sentiment.

(Also, someone has already posited the slash fic as the freakin' Book of Mormon. I'm still laughing like a loon.)

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

And those were just the ones I found in five minutes of looking. Trust me, Hollywood knows people on the internet write fan fiction. And there's not going to be a flood of people getting sued or anything because Sam and Dean mentioning slash fanfic is not even close to the first time it's been brought up on a TV show.

I miss a lot of things in this fandom, so it's entirely possible I just haven't seen any of what you're talking about, but so far I haven't seen anyone who felt the episode was a surfeit of meta thinking that because they thought it was the first time anyone has ever brought it up on TV or that a flood of people are going to be sued. Obviously, that's the not case.

But such heavy meta focused purely on this show--the fact that all episode titles are now canon within the show, for instance, as are Samgirls and Deangirls and Wincest and a number of other things, made it kind of hard for me to enjoy the episode as an episode in parts. The focus was on cramming in as much meta as possible as opposed to telling the story, and I think it would have been a lot more effective if they'd gone for few sly nods instead of a full frontal assault.

And the Wincest mention... the idea that it will or could kill all Wincest is completely ridiculous, but I think it's also silly not acknowledge that, if you're taking that moment as canon and trying to write stories based on canon, it fundamentally changes the equation from now on. It's something that has taken into account, that has to be worked in, and man, the flood (well, okay, trickle, Wincest hasn't been a flood for a long time) of stories that will have the requisite "This is just like those books!" moment is going to get old really quickly. That's not a legitimate reason to criticize the show, at all... obviously they're not choosing their jokes to make it easier for people writing the incestuous gay fanfiction. But it's a perfectly legitimate reason for the people who write and read it to sigh a little.

[eilonwy.livejournal.com]

Seriously? This is why people will choose not to no longer read/write Wincest? (I admit, Wincest is not my cup of tea, but I agree with you in that if anything, this episode gives permission for it.)

As for the heavy-handedness... Now, as I wrote in my LJ, I adore metadrama, I write about it for a living (with the understanding that as a grad student I don't actually make a living.) And I agree with one of the above posters that meta can be heavy-handed, but I don't think that it was in this episode. I think this episode was beautifully done, forwarding the mytharc, creating a stand-alone episode, paying homage to its fans, taking sly winks at itself and its fandom, and being hilarious. In fact, I think the meta in "Hollywood Babylon" was far more problematic in that it felt self-indulgent, insular instead of accessible.

In fact, if anything, the amount that this show and Kripke & Ko. listen to their fans worries me (a little). I mean, it's great when a show loves its fandom and responds to its complaints and quibbles, but I worry about where the balance lies, where the creator's storytelling and vision become compromised (and that's unknowable until at the very least, the end of a series run.)

[telaryn.livejournal.com]

I mean, it's great when a show loves its fandom and responds to its complaints and quibbles, but I worry about where the balance lies, where the creator's storytelling and vision become compromised

This has actually been a concern for me in the past with other shows, but I think if SPN didn't have the balance figured out when they started - they're doing quite well now.

I'm a life-long soap opera watcher. You want stories destroyed in the name of pleasing a fanbase? Watch General Hospital. What reassures me with SPN is the almost adolescent glee they take in messing with us. Remember the initial Ruby/Bela foilers? The ones that said the two women were going to be *hunters* on a par with Sam and Dean?

I have to believe in retrospect that was deliberately crafted to get the fanbase riled up. And with a show that's evidenced less respect for its fans over the years, that would righteously piss me off.

Here? It's like your kid brothers putting a rubber snake in your bed. Sure you're pissed initially, but ultimately you roll your eyes and laugh at the joke.

[eilonwy.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I hope you're right, but I'm thinking bigger questions-- like, I'd heard that Castiel was only supposed to be in one episode, but fans liked him (myself included) and now he's been in many and Mischa Collins is signed on for more, which could be a very good thing, but by the same token, how far off is that from Kripke's original plan?

That said, I trust you (and other fans.) I have been a fan for less than a month. (I Netflixed season one and then pretty much immediately bought the rest, have caught up through season 4 and even cycled back through season 1 and am partway through season 2 again. So I may not be a diehard fan because I am new, I am definitely a hyooge fan!) So I don't have any experience with the balance of fan-to-show. Still, I already love the show so very much that it makes me nervous, I am protective. :D When I take a step back (and it's hard to do that from season 4 without the last 4 episodes, and the first several of 5, frankly), I *can* see a cohesive character arc for both the brothers, which is reassuring, and if it's not the one that Kripke originally set out to tell, well, who's to say that that's a good or bad thing?

Still, I worry. That's what I do. :)

(And I completely agree that some things are put in, or leaked, just to get fans up in arms. The next episode, for example, looks to be precisely that sort of thing.)

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

According to the EW article that just came out, it has nothing to do with his original plan whatsoever. In fact, he always swore he would never do angels, so adding Castiel as a major character, which he really has become in the last few episodes, is a HUGE departure from whatever his original plan was. Which means the whole epic battle between heave and hell almost certainly must be, as well.

[eilonwy.livejournal.com]

Oooh, which issue of EW is that? I didn't see it (I get EW, but I've been so busy that I haven't read them all.)

Yeah, I thought I'd heard never any angels... And maybe this is a better story-line than what he originally had planned (after all, brothers on a roadtrip is better than the reporter idea he started with) but .... As I said above, I worry. :)

And it makes me wonder how firm then the 5-year-plan is-- if he's off-script (so to speak), y'know?

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

I'm in the weird position of knowing some general spoilers for next season which I obviously don't want to subject you to, but I think if there ever honestly was a five-year plan, Kripke's been off it completely for at least a season, maybe longer.

[eilonwy.livejournal.com]

...I am not a spoiler-phobe. I actually like to be spoiled, if it's at all reassuring. (Not that a) you must tell me, although I'm dying of curiosity, or b) you should necessarily put any spoilers here in someone else's LJ.)

It doesn't surprise me that he's off-plan [not many shows stay on-plan], it just surprises me that he continues to say that he's on-plan, then. Or that the show must needs end at 5 years.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. I don't consider it reassuring... in fact, it deeply upset me. But other people are very happy, so... take that for what it's worth?

If you still want to know, I'll PM you.

[eilonwy.livejournal.com]

Sure, I'd still like to know. (My email is the same as my LJ name, @gmail.com, or send a message via LJ, either way.) I read through a bit of your LJ (I so need to be getting to class, though. It's really bad form for the *instructor* to be late because she's more interested in SPN than Twelfth Night), and I think I see where you're coming from, and I think I agree in many ways, and yet I still have great hope that the show will, somehow become Sam&Dean again, because the family relationship is what made it so good before. (Having just rewatched season 1, everyone's assertions that they're stronger as a family really hit home when considering the problems of season 4.)

[suaine.livejournal.com]

Really, have there been noises about not writing Sam/Dean anymore? Oh, SPN fandom, no! ;D

[fyrdrakken]

I admit I was burying my face in the bedspread and moaning when Sam was explaining slash to Dean. (ETA: This being me having been scarred by seeing the photos of the look on Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan's faces when some dipshit gave them a Theban Band Merry/Pippin pic. Major major squick for me now to have that kind of thing actually shoved in the actors' faces. Having Sam and Dean running across Sam and Dean slashfic was too uncomfortably close to that situation.) And I have serious issues with author self-insertion/author-meets-their-characters-IRL plots (Stephen King and the last installment or two of the Gunslinger series being pretty epic with the fail there), so I wasn't at all happy at that point in the ep.

I got happier when Castiel showed up, though. I can deal with "using psychic visions of real events to write 'fiction'" or even "author as mere mouthpiece for divine inspiration" in this particular setting. Especially after the commercial break where it stopped being like Castiel fanboying Sam and Dean's biographer and started really hammering home the point about it being some no-account schlub who was just being used by higher-ups in the heavenly hierarchy. (The "You should have seen Luke" was the turning point -- really emphasizing this wasn't the plot where the author is wanking about their own divine creative powers. Though it's nice they did the lampshade-hanging on that specific point early on, too.)

I wasn't too much enjoying the jabs at the fans there, but I can understand why there might not be much love there on the part of the cast and production staff.

[ou-peachus.livejournal.com]

Cause I mentioned your post I wanted to let you know: http://ou-peachus.livejournal.com/76243.html#cutid1

[macbyrne.livejournal.com]

Exactly!!! Porn-fu still works, people! It's all very tongue-in-cheek, and most people (who don't haunt the websites, comms, etc) aren't really going to understand the slash comments, or care. It's not like we've got big red W's painted on our cheeks now or something!!

[clex_monkie89.livejournal.com]

OOH! That is SO even better than my idea. Mine was totally the cliche with them kinda spiraling into fandom (mostly Sam, because as someone pointed out, he apparently read enough about him and his brother fucking to be able to calmly explain it to Dean, and we all know fandom's the slipperiest slope ever) and... Something else I forget.

Sam totally betas fic for that one girl who got all the recs and sent him to Delicious and taught him where the good fic lives.

(Now watch me never get around to writing this.)

[serrico.livejournal.com]

Or how about, what with the "Winchester Gospel" being written by man and all, if later on after everything goes down, some of that slash fiction gets slipped into later editions and Sam and Dean (who've been gifted with an immortal life of hunting bad things or whatever for saving the world) keep having to explain that Sam and Dean were not fucking without explaining who they are, and one thing leads to another, and ...

AHAHAHAHA! Yes. That. (Schisms within the church have happened over less. ;)

[macbyrne.livejournal.com]

I agree 111904382429%. I think they're poking fun at us in a older sibling/best friend kind of way. I get that some people are uncomfortable or uneasy; who the hell wants the rock they live under pried up? But I think it's hilarious; I laughed so loud when the boys said what they did!!!