Because the Uhura bashing gets to me ...

[apocalypsos]

... now she's a Mary Sue? As ficangel pointed out, anybody who can say that when Uhura's standing on the same bridge with James fucking Kirk has BALLS. Big ones. Please have those looked at by a medical professional.

There's a comment that hits home with something that hasn't just struck me in STXI fandom, God knows: I can't speak to Uhura specifically, having not seen the movie, but I just roll my eyes and tune out completely whenever I see the phrase "Mary Sue" because at this point it's applied to any female character under the age of seventy who can make it home in a rainstorm without drowning.

The term "Mary Sue" loses all power the way fandom throws it around anymore. As is pointed out in that post, if the cries of fandom were any indication, the ratio of Mary Sues to Marty Sues is staggeringly unbalanced. But like I said, that's if you listen to fandom.

*

The story goes that last night when my parents went out to dinner with my grandparents, my dad yelled at my grandma on behalf of me and my brother. My dad NEVER yells at my grandmother. He gets a cookie. :D

Comments

[paradisacorbasi.livejournal.com]

Mary Sue?!

She got promoted from essentially "secretary" of the Enterprise and people are calling her a Sue?

To quote Kirk? BULLSHIT.

Giving her role expansion was great. Simply put.

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

... oh my god. People are seriously going there?? *throws up hands*

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

There was a secret on F!S the other day calling her "clingy."

LOL WUT.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

*sigh* These days, it seems like that term gets applied to any woman who's somehow "too affectionate" with a male character. Particularly a popular male character that people want to pair up with someone else. And I say that as someone who likes both Kirk/Spock and Uhura/Spock. But people who denigrate the female half of a canonical relationship just so they can have their slash pairing irritate the crap out of me, you know?

[memphis86.livejournal.com]

... I would fail at Star Trek fandom it seems. Because I would ONLY ship pairings involving Uhura. :D

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I want fic with her doing everything. You don't get in that position without EARNING that goddamn earfob.

[affectingly.livejournal.com]

I can't speak to Uhura specifically, having not seen the movie, but I just roll my eyes and tune out completely whenever I see the phrase "Mary Sue" because at this point it's applied to any female character under the age of seventy who can make it home in a rainstorm without drowning.

What's hilarious here is that I'm moderating a panel on that EXACT TOPIC for Sirens (third one down). Because seriously, stop it, people!

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

It's freaking ANNOYING. It's irritating enough already dealing with it in SPN fandom where every woman who breathes onscreen gets called a Mary Sue. Seriously, nutjobs, shut your pieholes, existing is not enough to make someone a Mary Sue. SHEESH.

[affectingly.livejournal.com]

At this rate, I'm going to become the Mary Sue of my own LIFE. I have friends! I'm smart! I'm funny! I have eyes that change color! I wear a lot of pink!

SOMEONE CALL THE FUCKING MARY SUE POLICE. I'VE BEEN SET LOOSE ON THE WORLD.

[chris-walsh.livejournal.com]

*salutes you*

[affectingly.livejournal.com]

*salutes right back*

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

I don't know you, but I fangirl you madly. (Oh, wait, that probably damages your case even further, huh?)

[affectingly.livejournal.com]

Maybe it helps my case? Maybe I want to be a Mary Sue! The haters can SUCK IT.

[lisaofdoom.livejournal.com]

Thanks for linking that post, the commentary there was really good. :)

I really want to seek out wherever this hatred is and keep reposting that Uhura look at this macro. :p

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

That macro is my favorite thing to come out of all of this crap. :D

[lisaofdoom.livejournal.com]

I am kind of curious what sort of lady character the Spock fanbrats the people making this kind of criticism would be happy with. It seems like this hypothetical lady doesn't have a whole lot of options. :/

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

That macro is pure win.

[sabotabby]

Somehow I knew there would be Uhura-bashing when the new movie came out, but I'd hoped otherwise. I did want her to have more of a role than she did, but that's actually the opposite of Mary Sue.

Mary Sue != made of win and awesome.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wanted to see more Uhura, but I'm willing to overlook it for this movie if only because like it or not it's the Kirk/Spock bromance at the heart of everything (although I do like that much of it, so ...). But if she doesn't get more to do in the next movie, THEN I'll flip.

At least I'm watching Whale Rider and I'm getting to see a wee scrawny kickass chick knock some sense into an entire community right now. Hmph.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

any female character under the age of seventy who can make it home in a rainstorm without drowning

Heh. I think what people forget is that no one would want a pathetic character who couldn't do ANYTHING, because that would be both frustrating and annoying. We're following this character BECAUSE they deal with life in a strong or interesting way.

[jooniper-pearl.livejournal.com]

::cough:: Can you say Bella in Twilight?

[marag.livejournal.com]

If I encounter someone calling Uhura a Mary Sue, I might just have to go all Spock on their ass.

I'm just sayin'.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Amen on that.

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

Sadly, the first person I saw to go to the Mary Sue place was Henry Jenkins.

I just.... HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE SMARTER THAN THAT. He's like Fandom's ambassador to the rest of the world, he's not supposed to say dumbass dumbshit things like "The only chick in this is a Mary Sue".

Then again, dudes in fandom are just... dudes. I don't always understand how their brains work.

[marag.livejournal.com]

Henry Jenkins??? I think my heart just broke :(

My father, OTOH, thought this Uhura was fabulous. We were discussing just yesterday how awesome it was that she got to be a linguist and do linguistics things, as well as how groundbreaking her existence was in TOS.

I'm proud to say that my father, at least, got it. (He's a SF fan from back in the day.)

[dragonsinger.livejournal.com]

If Uhura is a Mary Sue, then you and I are Mary Sues as well. Dude, how does it feel to be considered perfect because you're smart and you have a vagina? ;)

Seriously, though, why is a large section of fandom so afraid of strong female characters? I simply don't understand. As Spock would say, "It's highly illogical."

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I don't get the hate-on for female characters, seriously. Tough chicks are FUN. Not even women who run around toting guns and punching people, just ... you know, awesome women. Urgh.

[dragonsinger.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

[larcley.livejournal.com]

Dude, I loved Uhura in the movie. \o/ I loved her for wearing a miniskirt, and being completely smart and sexy! But I did not like the Uhura/Spock. It's not her, though. It's Spock. I can't see him with, like, anyone. Perhaps I do not want to defile my sexless childhood this way? IDEK.

[anne-jumps.livejournal.com]

Seriously, though, why is a large section of fandom so afraid of strong female characters?

I'd chalk it up to their own insecurities.

[dragonsinger.livejournal.com]

That makes sense.:)

[azurelunatic]

I don't think I can go over there. Flame might shoot out my ears.

If they think she's a Mary Sue, where the fuck were they for all the novels in which she's exactly this badass?

[foenix.livejournal.com]

I've long taken issue with the way Mary Sue is used by the masses.

It's like retcon. People say either of those words, and they almost always are thought of as 'bad'. When at the core, they just describe concepts of storytelling that are neither good NOR bad.

Of course a character is a Mary Sue. Almost *every* character can be called one, to SOME extent, and once you think that's a bad thing, then you expand it, and anything a character does is bad and Mary Sueish, no matter what.

I'm tired and my neck hurts, so I got a bit rambly but I think my point survives. ;)

[madripoor-rose.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to make an acronym for what Marysue really means to those fen. So far I've got Misogynist Asshats Really Yearn for Simple Uterus Extinction.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

You know, it'd be almost easy to dismiss this shit Trek fanboys being, well, Trek fanboys, except most of this Mary Sue shit comes from women. And like you said, it's hardly limited to Trek.

Fucking fandom misogyny.

[mike-smith.livejournal.com]

How the hell can Uhura be a Mary Sue when she's in the same movie with Spock, who:

-has a unique ancestry (half Vulcan/half human)
-gets teased at school (awwwww!)
-makes Commander by his early 20's
-experiences an absurd level of hardships (planet blows up, watches mom die in front of him)
-angsts in the transporter room
-programs the Kobiyashi Maru simulation that no one can beat
-commands the Enterprise for about a third of the movie
-meets his future self, who's a captain/ambassador/super scientist
-appears in virtually every scene in the movie, thanks to the time travel stuff letting him be in two places at once.

Oh, and he's also nailing the hottest girl in the movie on the side.

I'm not saying any of this is bad, but there's no way Uhura comes anywhere close to being a Mary Sue, if only by virtue of the fact that she's playing a supporting role to Spock, who meets far more of the criteria.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Seconding all of this, but that's fandom for you. She's got a vagina and can stand upright, apparently that's enough for some people.

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

Ugh. So now she's not given anything to do, turned into just a love interest, and so super awesome she can only be a Mary Sue?

Sometimes I wonder if what fandom really honestly wants is media without any pesky females at all. And then I realize, yeah pretty much.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I skimmed the link you made, and one of the comments caught my attention--that Jack Harkness of DW would be reviled as a Mary Sue if his character were female.

I hadn't thought of that before (I only ever apply Mary Sue to fanfiction and fanworks, so unless it's pointed out to me I just don't categorize canon characters that way)...but it's quite true. He would be shot down and called names like "whore" quite a lot more than he is as Jack.

[vampirespider.livejournal.com]

I don't even get that from a slash point-of-view. I mean, I didn't particularly like Spock/Uhura, but that doesn't mean Uhura isn't fierce; she had flaws, but they were far outweighed by her qualities, and I just hope she gets more to do in the next film. ♥

[zenslash.livejournal.com]

As someone who has seen the movie and had the utmost respect for TOS Uhura I will say that the representation of Uhura in the movie is not as strong as the one in TOS.

To me (and YMMV of course), TOS Uhura had a poise and a presence that the movie Uhura lacked. Getting in someone's face and showing sassiness does not necessarily constitute strength ...

You may choose to read further if you wish since this contains movie spoilers...

...and pulling the girlfriend card to get what you want certainly does not.

My main issue with movie!Uhura was the fact that her role was that of girlfriend of Spock. Sulu got to show his muscle and save the day. Chekov and Scotty got to save the day. Uhura received what I thought was pertinent information and she shared it with her roomate. Sure, she brought it up after prompting from Kirk to validate what he was stating. But I don't see TOS!Uhura thinking that it was something she should just sit on and think was 'weird'.

Again I state - TOS!Uhura represented a strength and poise and whether she was out of her chair or not, she had a presence. I felt that movie!Uhura lacked it. Seriously.

As for the reference to her being a Mary Sue, I actually saw that coined by Henry Jenkins (http://henryjenkins.org/2009/05/five_ways_to_start_a_conversat.html) (point #2) and he was referring specifically to movie!Uhura. He talked about how TOS Uhura had a role and skills and qualifications she was able to exhibit. In the movie, we are told that Uhura has skills and she exhibits them to a point, then she's relegated to being the emotional buffer for Spock. (And yes, I know women can be strong AND emotional. I'm not forcing an either-or situation.)

There are many people who have the same thought as I for the very few reasons that I stated, so it's not an unccommon thoguht. It's less about diminishing Uhura (MOVIE, not TOS) and more about how she appeared on the screen. The character in the movie was somewhat of a disappointment for many, especially for women of color like myself.

Again, YMMV and you may or may not have seen or see the movie. It was one of my major disappointments with the film as I truly hoped to see someone equally as fabulous as Nichelle Nichols in the role.

PS - I have not read the posts of the OP that you're referencing. I am just commenting on the possible use of the term 'Mary Sue' when it comes to MOVIE Uhura who, again, is NOT the same as TOS Uhura, who I would never apply the term to.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

...and pulling the girlfriend card to get what you want certainly does not.

Uhura didn't "pull the girlfriend card" to get on the Enterprise. She pulled the "I actually deserve to be on the Enterprise because I'm the most skilled, talented and qualified candidate" card to get on the Enterprise.

It was *Spock* who was letting their relationship color his choices. Uhura had to be the one to tell him, "No, put that aside and assess me *professionally*, because when you do that, there's no question that I deserve to be on the Enterprise."

[beanarie.livejournal.com]

Well said!

[n-e-star.livejournal.com]

And this is why I love fandom - Star Trek fanfiction created the term "Mary Sue" and 40 years later that term has had such wide spread use that it's being applied to one of it's own characters!