A quick Doctor Who comment in regards to last night's episode

[apocalypsos]

I keep reading reaction posts for yesterday's episode and ... okay, before I say this, I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just saying this because I get where your opinion is coming from and people have a really good argument for why they have the opinion and I totally understand and that's why I'm saying this:

Hating River Song is not an unpopular fannish opinion.

Neither is liking her.

For all of the recaps I've read, it seems to run fifty-fifty. One half of the people watching are going, "I really don't like River Song for being smug and patronizing," and one half of the people watching are going, "FUCK ME, RIVER SONG, GOOD LORD, YOU'RE AWESOME." There doesn't really seem to be a middle ground. Heh.

I'm not saying that because one person has said, "This may be an unpopular fannish opinion, but ..." I'm saying this because I'm starting to automatically associate the phrases "unpopular fannish opinion" and "hate River Song" for how often I've read them connected together in the past twenty-four hours.

So, yeah. No worries! Really. You're not alone! :)

(I really do get where people are coming from with their complaints about the character, though. That said, I'm trying to avoid rewatching "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances" because in my memory Jack was almost equally smug when we first met him and I can't recall if everybody reacted him just as viscerally as they're reacting to River.)

Comments

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised River is so disliked, because I thought fans generally had liked her sort of sassy attitude when we saw it in other companions. She reminds me of a much earlier companion , the Time Lord Romana, who was much more a peer for the Doctor than most companions.

Maybe what annoys people is that River knows stuff we don't.

And you're right , there was a very similar dynamic with Jack.

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

I think it's the actress, tbh. Plus there is so much shipping of the Doctor at this point I think the whole wife implication (which I don't believe) just sends some people 'round the bend automatically.

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

i am possibly biased because I find Alex Kingston so incredibly hot. There's something so juicy and ripe

[schtroumph-c.livejournal.com]

Maybe what annoys people is that River knows stuff we don't.

The common complain I saw was that she knew more than the Doctor, she's better than him at Doctor's stuff. They had difficulty with the TARDIS noise being because of the brakes thing, for example, kind of 'stop taking away the specialness of the Doctor.'

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

see that's exactly what I like about here - she makes the Doctor less of this special snowflake.

[apiphile.livejournal.com]

Oh hey! I liked her! I didn't worship the ground she walked on - I think she looks interestingly flawed and sneaky and the gem of an idea is forming in my head which I want to discuss with someone who won't KNIFE me for it - but I liked her.

... and this is why I'm glad I don't touch fandom, ever.

[titti]

Yeah, I didn't know that it was an unpopular fannish opinion nor that it was so wide spread until yesterday. Now, I love, but to each her own.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Jack was MORE smug, if anything.

Mind you, I'm definitely in the "love" camp with River, while Jack by no means sold me right away.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm edging towards 'dislike', but I'll own that's partly because I have a pet theory and if it gets proven wrong, I'll cry. ;)

[deannawol.livejournal.com]

See, I think it was the suddenness of it all. Find a woman and wow, she announces that she's the Doctor's wife. There's no lead up, there's no budding romance, there's nothing that could even class as that and the only proof that she is, is the fact that she knows stuff that only a wife or a stalker would know.

He's had a lot more chemistry with some of his companions but steadfastly remained just friends because he knows that he's essentially an immortal being but then, at some point in his future, he relents and no reason is given why. We see how close 9 got to Rose, 10 as well. Then 10 and Martha - who was his bounceback but got under his skin. Donna was awesome but kept him completely in his place. And now Amy - who is awesome but I'm waiting to find out what her story is. But River is just dropped in and is just there.

What is interesting is that there was at least one question last night that she dodged and looked like she couldn't answer, which put a bit of a doubt in my mind about her 'marriage' to the Doctor.

Honestly, I don't like her. Not because of the actress or the character but the concept. It flies in the face of what the Doctor has been for the past ... mumble ... years and suddenly she's here and there's obviously going to be more of her because she's the Doctor's future wife.

Jack was smug, yes, but it was an American smug that went with his 'I'm so awesome' attitude. We didn't expect to see him again so he was disposable the first time he appeared. As Torchwood went on, Jack's smugness became less endearing, until in Children of Earth, he was the most hated character. He sacrificed children to an alien. Knowingly.

I've been poking around looking at some of the reviews and honestly, I don't really mind what is popular and what is not, but I just don't like the concept of the character and the smugness doesn't help. Plus, she doesn't act like she is married to the Doctor. There's no closeness. There's no false steps as you try to remember that this isn't your husband.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Find a woman and wow, she announces that she's the Doctor's wife.

I can't recall "Silence in the Library" at the moment, but did she ever actually SAY she's going to be his wife? I mean, it's implied from the level of trust in regards to her knowing his name, and Amy certainly expounds on fandom's supposition that she is, but has she ever actually said, "We get married"? Because she certainly didn't say as much last night, and I don't recall it from earlier episodes.

I love River, but I love her with the understanding that she's clearly playing the Doctor. I've felt like she's been conning him ever since the first moment we saw her, even before we learned last night that she's obviously untrustworthy in one way because she won't be thoroughly honest with the Doctor because doing so will lead to her going back to jail. She's going forwards and he's going backwards, and so of course she's going to be smug and rub it in his face that she knows something he doesn't know, because if she plays her cards right, she can make it appear like she does so because they're going to be married rather than that there's something clearly not right about their relationship. (Honestly, if they did get married, I would definitely expect more affection out of her even if this were only the second time she's met him.) If she throws around a couple of "sweeties" and a few well-timed winks, she can (and has already, really) maneuvered him to a point where he wants to stay away from her before he screws something up.

Even if she *has* stated that she'll be his wife in his future, I don't buy it for a minute. I firmly believe she's playing him like a virtuoso, so it's a lot of fun for me personally because I have a sneaking suspicion she's more of a villain than we've been shown and I just like watching her fuck with him hardcore. ;)

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

I have no objection to the Doctor being in love, engaged, married or thrice divorced with a concubine on every planet. He's a grown-up and so am I. But River Song is obnoxious, manipulative, deeply stupid and clearly doesn't like him, let alone love him, and that's no basis for any kind of relationship.

When she appeared last time there was no ambiguity; she was his future wife. Now I see the retcon sliding in, the inserted hint that she just may be something nasty instead. Honestly, that would be preferable.

[apiphile.livejournal.com]

See, this is what confuses me about fandom: why can't she be both? Why does everything have to be so fucking black and white? Why not be his future wife AND something nasty?

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

[...]

She can be whatever the writers say she is. I would prefer her not to be his future wife. Is that less fucking confusing?

[jacinthsong.livejournal.com]

Re: Jack, yeah, maybe my views are skewed by my flist, but I don't remember anything but OMGLOVE! from the new-who communities I was in at the time. (You mean, even given the valid objections, fandom might apply different rules to male and female characters? NO WAI.)

[heather.livejournal.com]

I approve of awesome women being smug. Doesn't happen enough. End of.

Anyway, I like her. I have no experience with Who fandom and didn't even know people disliked her until yesterday! Whatever. *g*

[sabra-n.livejournal.com]

Liking or hating River is about more than liking or hating River, because Doctor Who fandom is still feeling the aftershocks of Marthagate and the anon meme after all this time. It's...political, almost. Though thankfully that's all wearing down with time and a new showrunner.

[sabra-n.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I don't like River very much, even though that's contrary to the beliefs of my f-list. :P All the good things she brought - getting Matt Smith to make the TARDIS landing noise, the fun fangirling from Amy - are just stamped out by the relentless SMUG SMUG SMUG.

You can make Jack comparisons and call sexism, but for all his limited acting ability, I thought Barrowman brought more charm to his early Jack characterization than Kingston has brought to River's.

And there's also a key difference between the two: Jack was a con artist who didn't know the Doctor or Rose and didn't particularly care about them; even in his third and fourth episodes he was getting to know them. River was, at the very least, the Doctor's long-term companion by the time we meet her, and I have yet to feel any affection coming from her towards him in the midst of the teasing. We're supposed to be invested in her from the start because of some emotional history she's got with the Doctor, but I'm not getting that sense from her at all.

Amy's confident and smart and certainly doesn't fawn or (as she says) cling, and her friendship with the Doctor comes through loud and clear. River just...hasn't quite combined those qualities, though I imagine that her cheerful facade is going to take something of a hit in Part 2. We'll see.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

River was, at the very least, the Doctor's long-term companion by the time we meet her, and I have yet to feel any affection coming from her towards him in the midst of the teasing. We're supposed to be invested in her from the start because of some emotional history she's got with the Doctor, but I'm not getting that sense from her at all.

See, after watching the episode last night, I took the lack of affection or emotional history from her as an intentional performance decision, since I watched ER way back when and I know Alex Kingston is certainly capable of portraying affection when the need arises. Between that, the prison comment, and the smugness (I love her and even I can recognize the "I know something you don't know" stuff), I get the distinct impression River's playing a long con backwards.

It's like the difference between the River in the library and the River here. If we go with the set-up that she's his wife/long-term companion/whatever, there's something missing even back then. Even if they're at different stages in the relationship in the library, I'd expect her to be more into it, so to speak. But it's more like she's happy to see him, a bit resigned, but a bit sorry.

If we go into it as "River's playing some sort of long con on the Doctor, but backwards," her behavior and lack of affection in the library might make more sense if she's come to a point in her life when she realizes she's doing something wrong. She can use the information she has on him to get what she wants and use the conclusions he jumps to ("I took a tiny step and there conclusions were" seems to fit a lot of the assumptions fandom's already made about their relationship) to lead him down certain paths he's meant to follow, but at the point where she knows things will end, why attempt to even fake affection?

Meanwhile, we have this episode. If she's his wife/long-term companion/whatever, she's not easy enough around him. But if she's a con woman doing a number on him (see: the prison comment), her over-the-top "I know something you don't know" stuff and needling "Sweetie" all the time makes a bit more sense. In that case, she may be more obviously fucking with him. She knows he's uncomfortable around her and she's making him even more uncomfortable and pliable by both calling him "sweetie" over and over again and using information she's already gleaned about him (and Time Lords and TARDISes) in a past we haven't seen yet to give him the impression he was the one who told her it.

Let's say that next week River does something that makes it obvious to the Doctor that she's not being entirely honest -- say, the prison thing. Now you've got Eleven not trusting her and going back in time and River feeling like the gig is up and going forward in time. That leads into the library-River, who's not altogether given up being a know-it-all around the Doctor but is still a bit more low-key than the angels-River.

And at the beginning of the episode, you've got a River who trusts in the Doctor to come get her, and exudes smugness like cheap perfume. So if we're still on the con woman track, my theory is that her previous interaction with the Doctor preceding the episode -- how far earlier it would be is obviously a who-knows sort of question -- would intersect with the Doctor who's just come off finding out that River is not all that she appears. This earlier River is still in the middle of her long con and may think she can totally outmaneuver the Doctor, and ends up getting away in the end with just that impression, leaving him holding the bag but inevitably saving the day. This leaves her cocky and a bit full of herself for this episode.

The thing with the long-con theory is that it explains the smugness and the lack of affection. If she knows already that she'll keep meeting younger and younger Doctors along the way, she may have first met him when he knew damn well what she'd done and didn't trust a word she says. This leaves her with an enemy who gets progressively more innocent and actually forgets her bullshit as their relationship progresses. Who wouldn't want to screw with an enemy like that?

Of course, that's just the theory I've been going with. YMMV. :)

[lothlorienbaby.livejournal.com]

You've got a great theory there.

I didn't like River the first go-around because she did feel "off" in some way. If she is conning the Doctor, that goes a long way to explaining why that is. And who's to say that engineering a plan in which she is eventually trapped in a computer program for all eternity isn't payback for the con? She was maybe trying to redeem herself in the library and he kind of robbed her of that.

I think the only thing that nags for me is the whole "she knows his name" thing. It's hard to imagine any version of the Doctor trusting her with that, even if he knows it will ultimately lead to her being trapped in a computer.

Still, it makes the fact that she is going to reappear probably once every Moffat season a lot more tolerable. :-)

[merryhouse.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's as simple as that. I don't think the interactions are exactly opposite (after all, why should they be? he jumps around in time). Next time the Doctor sees River might be the next time for her too, or it might be the first time she meets him, or something else entirely random.

Certainly she doesn't think it's exactly opposite, or she'd have had more of a reaction to realising he'd never met her before...

(here via apiphile)

[fyrdrakken]

I find myself really liking this idea.

[trcunning.livejournal.com]

My problem with River is one I've had with other characters in the past, and I'm never sure if it's because of the character or the actor, but I feel like she's too "practiced".

Jack was looked smug but it was unconscious, he wasn't trying to look smug, he was trying to look forceful and in command. When River looked mysterious or affectionate or teasing, whatever, it was like she had pulled from a stock of masks. 'This is my teasing face'.

Everyone, including Jack (John B), fluctuates their expression. She's too consistent in her expressions, has too much control of her facial muscles. I just can't trust it.

[smallcaps.livejournal.com]

Liking or disliking a character is almost never an unpopular fannish opinion. I am constantly amazed by people who don't seem to grasp that, and then I remember that I've done the exact same "everyone disagrees! (because I don't notice the people agreeing)" huff.

[fyrdrakken]

And I'm right there in the middle -- I disliked her in her first two-parter because her character revolved so much around smugly rubbing in the Doctor and Donna's faces how much she knew that they didn't, and not a lot else. This time around, she won me over with that opening scene -- she earned her awesome -- and the spoilers talk had been largely dropped.

I'm fine with the Doctor having his thunder stolen a bit, too -- loved Romana in Classic Who, for example. But, yeah, before this ep River was a lot of talk and not a lot of actual game.