(no subject)

[apocalypsos]

I just saw the video of the American being decapitated by the Iraqi extremists that's up on Ogrish.com. All I have to say is just ... ugh. And I have a strong stomach when it comes to mind, so the act itself isn't what disgusts me. (Be forewarned if you're going to go see it ... it's forty seconds long of them literally sawing on his neck. And just when you think you've seen enough, his screams just cut off.)

Let me put it this way. The first person to so much as imply that now we have to retaliate back at the Iraqis runs the risk of a first-rate TP-issue bitch-slap. "An eye for an eye" works just fine until you realize if you keep it up, everyone in the kingdom ends up a one-eyed whiny freak.

When. The FUCK. Is all this going to end?

Comments

[sabotabby]

Gah! Stupid .wmv format. I can't watch it.

::pouts::

Oh, that sounded really insensitive.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Try downloading Cliprex off download.com. It's freeware, last I checked, and it played it fine for me.

[cacahuate.livejournal.com]

RealMedia.

[velocityboy.livejournal.com]

man, that was hard to watch.

[runcible.livejournal.com]

Wow, I just heard you talking about it and I got this little cold sick feeling in my chest.

Now traumatized.

God.

O_O

[lil1pinay.livejournal.com]

I know that I didn't have to watch it, but I did.

I'm going to vomit now.

Jesus Christ.

You know

[leaveoutalltherest]

I usually have a strong stomach too. Watch horror movies like they're my bible on video, but this...I was fine until it really hit me that it was *REAL*

I don't think I'll be eating Taco Bell again for a while...

[budclare.livejournal.com]

Now I'm pissed, so I'm going to pray to the progeny of God/Grumpy Bear to smite the sadistic bastards into oblivion. (Or maybe just make their penises inexplicably fall off. I leave the decision in the hands/paws of the wise and powerful spawn of G/GB.) If you're going to kill someone for no fucking reason, you can at least have the decency to do it quickly. Fucktards.

How can they possibly think that they're helping their country? (Granted, the same question could be asked of the U.S., but...ew. U.S. soldiers may do crappy things sometimes, but they've never stooped that low.)

[nute.livejournal.com]

(Granted, the same question could be asked of the U.S., but...ew. U.S. soldiers may do crappy things sometimes, but they've never stooped that low.)

Very untrue. Doesn't make it right, not by any stretch of the imagination. But soldiers of all nations have done worse. It's what soldiers DO.

[budclare.livejournal.com]

"Very untrue. Doesn't make it right, not by any stretch of the imagination. But soldiers of all nations have done worse. It's what soldiers DO."

Uh, no. Deliberately killing someone slowly and painfully? And I don't just mean unintentially, as in shooting to kill but only fatally wounding, resulting in slow, agonizing death. Planning to kill someone slowly and painfully just to put on a show?

[budclare.livejournal.com]

*sighs* Lost a few ltters. Nughty letters, running off like that.

*rereads last sentence, and facepalms*

[jyorraku.livejournal.com]

Planning to kill someone slowly and painfully just to put on a show?

...isn't that what war is?

[budclare.livejournal.com]

Gosh, that was deep. I'm so impressed.

Sorry if I dripped sarcasm on you just now. At least it doesn't stain clothes.

[jyorraku.livejournal.com]

Are you? Really? My life is now complete.

[nute.livejournal.com]

That's exactly what I mean. There's US soldiers who keep scrapbooks of stuff like this. It's a mindset - and one that's all too easy to fall into. Dehumanize the "enemy", thus you don't ask questions when you're told to kill them "just because". Once the mind can accept that this isn't a real person you've got at your mercy, it's easy to rationalize all kinds of horror.

No, it's not right. It's simply how it is. That's war. There is no honorable or gentle kind.

[budclare.livejournal.com]

A US soldier who sawed someone's head off just for fun, videotaped it, and showed it off to the whole world would be sent to prison.

I never said that other soldiers don't commit atrocities, and thank you so much for insulting my intelligence by implying otherwise. There's a reason (many, in fact) why I don't, in general, support wars. That doesn't mean that all atrocities are equal. Yes, I'm sure that there are US soldiers who have made their victims suffer more than this man suffered, but the deliberate infliction of pain, on videotape, for the sole purpose of gloating in front of the entire world is a wonderful new level of stupidity. Hurray for the information age.

[nute.livejournal.com]

That doesn't mean that all atrocities are equal.

There I'll disagree. I think that once you murder someone, no matter the other mitigating circumstances, you're all in the same boat. But I can see your point.

[pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com]

So your specific "our soldiers would never do that" is to the videotaping, not to the act itself.

Um, well, only just (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040512/tv_nm/iraq_abuse_video_dc_3).

[budclare.livejournal.com]

It's funny how it looks like you're quoting something that I never actually said.

I'm glad that all of you are so eager to save me from the ignorance of what you thought I said... It really warms my heart.

[pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to figure out what you meant, that's all.

You said,

Yes, I'm sure that there are US soldiers who have made their victims suffer more than this man suffered, but the deliberate infliction of pain, on videotape, for the sole purpose of gloating in front of the entire world is a wonderful new level of stupidity. Hurray for the information age.

Which I took to mean that you were specifically talking about the videotaping, not just the atrocity.

That's all. Honest.

[budclare.livejournal.com]

Not just the videotaping, the whole damn thing. The incident was, to my mind, an escalation of the atrocity stupidity. It's as if one layer of atrocity isn't enough; they (meaning any assholes who commit atrocities, not those of any specific country) seem to be stacking atrocity on top of atrocity, trying to see who can make the tallest pile of stupidity. In my opinion, the (inept) beheaders currently have stacked the atrocities the highest. (Proportionally, anyway. Such a small group of people can only cause so much damage, so they obviously can't be compared to, for instance, the perpetrators of the Holocaust.) That doesn't mean this is the worst atrocity, certainly, but most atrocities aren't intended to be made public. They used to be dirty little secrets that people made an effort to hide. (And before someone tries to argue with that statement, yes, sometimes atrocities are meant to be public on a limited scale, usually for the purposes of frightening people, but not public on a large scale. That takes a special kind of brazenness. I don't think that's a word, but tough.)

I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this, all because of one little off-hand remark. This is why I usually avoid subjects like this like the plague. It's just tiring.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

That makes very little sense. US soldiers are supposed to disobey illegal orders.

'I was just following orders' is never an excuse for an atrocity.

[nute.livejournal.com]

Supposed to. Few do.

And you're right. It's never an excuse. Ever.

[robyn-ma.livejournal.com]

for some reason, all i could get was the sound.

somehow, that made it worse. *shudder*

[jyorraku.livejournal.com]

I think I'm going to be sick. For a very long time. I wish people would stop seeing this as *Iraqis* vs. *Americans* and vice versa. The last time I checked, all our blood runs red. Hellooooo, all of this is just FUCKING wrong!

[robyn-ma.livejournal.com]

anyone else find the timing interesting here? it comes just in time to distract americans from the prison torture scandal.

[lots42.livejournal.com]

It came out because some fruit-loop deluded screwheads decided to 'take revenge' FOR the abuse scandal

[fyrdrakken]

And then you find out that this guy who was killed had been illegally held by the US military for about two weeks before they released him. It is not yet explained how he went from the US military to the hands of his captors, though IIRC he was originally captured by Iraqi security before being handed over to Americans...

[lots42.livejournal.com]

What?

A U.S. Contractor was captured by Iraqi security, given over to Americans where he was jailed then later ended up in the hands of Iraqi millitants???

[fyrdrakken]

Here's the latest article on the subject -- a "coalition spokesman" denies that Berg was ever held by American forces, though the article goes on to repeat the text of the article I read this morning in which his father says that in fact he was until his family back in the US complained and he was released...

[lots42.livejournal.com]

A bunch of those goobers still want revenge for Gulf War 1: The Stupidining

[budclare.livejournal.com]

I love you for using the word "stupidining". Just so you know.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Well, that's true. Hell, there are still goobers in the rural South who want revenge for the Civil War. Ugh. I hate people. *gags*

[dorei.livejournal.com]

I have no intention of clicking that link. There's a sick, twisted part of my soul that got its curiosity piqued, but I will let my practical and sound judgment let me live in happy ignorance.

M's response to this was to wish we could just nuke em all, but that wouldn't solve much of anything.

These people think they're right. Our country seems to think we're right. My personal belief is everyone is pretty much fucked in the head and maybe we all need to be nuked. Let the cockroaches have the planet, because gods know we haven't done much to earn the spot of "top dog" in the world.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

There's a sick, twisted part of me that wishes these days that "The Day After Tomorrow" was a documentary. This entire planet could use a serious smiting of anyone who's ever caused harm in God's name. I think that quote about Jesus never stopping throwing up if he saw what's being done is his name is pretty apt.

Ugh

[kimberlyfdr.livejournal.com]

That was horrible to watch. The lengths humanity will go to be the victor in any situation is terrible.

[jtersesk.livejournal.com]

The thing about this is, it was not a military action. The victim was an American civilian with no military connections at all - he was there of his own accord and not as a soldier or civilian contractor. The aggressors were Iraqi Islamic militants, not Iraqi soldiers. Thus, by definition, this was a terrorist act. It was not retaliation for the abuse of Iraqi POWs. It was a complaint against the US's refusal to effect a prisoner exchange. Basically, they were saying, "Fine, if you won't exchange our prisoners for yours, then we'll just kill yours."

This is yet another example of what religious extremists will do to make a point. This is another example of why the "War on Terrorism" cannot work. This is another example of why we need to get our asses the hell out of Iraq. That place is a pit of vipers and no one has an antidote.

[anne-jumps.livejournal.com]

This is yet another example of what religious extremists will do to make a point. This is another example of why the "War on Terrorism" cannot work. This is another example of why we need to get our asses the hell out of Iraq. That place is a pit of vipers and no one has an antidote.

I totally agree.

[sekari.livejournal.com]

I couldn't watch all of it. I didn't even see the any of the actual act. I had to turn it off when I realised that it was real. That someone was going to die. I don't think I need to see it.

[sleepyaardvark.livejournal.com]

Well I don't mean to sound likea cold-hearted un-American son of a bitch, but I can understand why Iraqis would do something like this and I wouldn't necessarily even call them extremists. To clarify that, they may or may not be extremists in other regards, but I would not make that determination solely on the basis of this beheading. While I don't condone what they did and I certainly don't think continued violence on either side is going to constructively solve anything, I can certainly understand the emotions of the Iraqi people right now--in fact, I share those same emotions.

Assume the situation were revered and the Iraqi army had invaded and deposed George W. Bush and set up shop in New York City and then after a year, we heard that they had been torturing prisoners--especially if we'd been hearing these allegations for a while and preferred to not believe them and give our occupiers the benefit of the doubt (which most mainstream Iraqis did until hard evidence of this abuse surfaced). Frankly, even as much of a pacifist as I am, I would be mad enough to want to go kill someone, and probably even mad enough to seriously consider the idea (while the particular method might seem gruesome to us, keep in mind its a different culture and beheading is very common in that region)--and I'm the furthest thing from an extremist.

And regarding the occupation itself, while I would certainly consider anyone who would invade and depose that crazy son of a bitch to be liberators (I keep praying for the remote possibility that the Queen might consider revoking our independence and the Treaty of Paris and sending in the Royal Marines), I, like the Iraqis, would want them to get the hell out ASAP. "Thanks very much for your assistance, NOW GO HOME! We'll take it from here."

But the prisoner abuse and the beheading should surprise no one. In fact, I would not be surprised when and if things got worse. When will it end, you ask? Well think of it this way, we know what horrid things we have seen in these photographs that have become public--can you just imagine what isn't being photographed?

According to Iraqbodycount.org, at least 9,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the start of the war, not to mention 700 US soldiders. Most of these casulties occurred after last May when Bush so arrogantly stood on an aircraft carrier in front of a "Mission Accomplished" banner in what had to have been the most ill-conceived photo op since Michael Dukakis climbed aboard a tank.

CONTINUED IN NEXT COMMENT DUE TO LENGTH LIMITS

[sleepyaardvark.livejournal.com]

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS COMMENT

But the reason none of this should suprise anyone is because--well, all the anti-war people pretty much foresaw all this before the first US soldier entered Iraq. And this was not just rabid liberals, the conservative Cato Institute put out numerous papers detailing why going into Iraq would be ill-advised. Now consider the aftermath: we have 18 and 19-year old kids in the middle of a totally alien culture that they do not understand doing a job that they are not trained to do, that they do not have the resources and support to do. There's no way to tell easily who is an enemy and who is a friend. The batallion put in charge of running the prison had no experience or training running a prison except what they had learned in one summer camp. They didn't know what to do if they were assaulted, what to do if there was a riot (there have been two). Not to mention that the prison is not just insurgent fighters, but also hard-core street criminals that were released by Saddam before the war and re-arrested later by Allied troops when they went back to being criminals. I can understand why things such as this happen when you put people in such extreme situations under such extreme stress.

My sympathy is with everyone involved in this mess that is of Bush's creation. The American soldiers put into such a terrible situation without proper planning to do the job right, their families waiting at home not knowing if the next stray mortar round or roadside bomb will take one of their loved ones, the anti-war activists who are watching all this unfold with utter despair and for whom "I told you so" is little, if any, comfort. Above all, my sympathies are with the Iraqi people, whom we have grossly failed. And it didn't have to be this way.

And the costs will be with us for years in terms of returning soldiers with psychological problems and post-traumatic stress disorder and the loss of America's moral high ground around the world. International goodwill is going to take years, if not decades, to restore. And what of the soldiers when they return? There a sizeable number of homeless in this country who are veterans of Vietnam. Will it be any different this time around?