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Feb. 12th, 2005 12:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
apocalypsosI mean, it's not like I don't get why people would think he made a mistake in killing Ethan. And in some ways, yeah, it was a mistake. Ethan is, aside from Danielle, the only person who has any idea what's up with that island, and they may have been able to get some answers from Ethan.
Therein lies the problem.
They may have been able to get some answers from the guy. Charlie had a point in that regard. We're talking about a guy who lied that he was another one of of the castaways, who masqueraded for weeks as one of their own without bothering to either share information or reveal who he really was. And he did all of this to kidnap a pregnant woman, presumably to take her baby. Does anyone honestly think that he would talked under interrogation, and if he did, would his answers have been truthful and complete? No. Considering his past history, his answers would have been questionable and probably not the entire story. At this point, Danielle has more of a truthful history than Ethan ever did, and considering how physically tough and mentally unstable he seemed to be, I don't think Sayid's torture techniques would have worked.
Also, I doubt a guy who's been living on that island for God knows how long (and may, in fact, have the same sort of "disease" that Danielle's people had) is all that sane. As a comparison, you have Danielle, who is just as mentally unbalanced due to "cabin fever" as Ethan was but is relatively harmless. When I say that, it's because she has not of yet breached the castaways and their safety to attack them. Ethan weaseled his way into their midst, after seeing their plane crash and -- since they checked the manifest for the funeral service -- watching them for a while before joining their group. And he did all of that with a malicious intent, unlike Danielle, who has not re-emerged from the jungle. We're talking about a sociopath here, and, if he had succeeded in his attempt to murder Charlie, a serial killer. (Actually, he'd have to kill three before he's even considered a serial killer by the proper authorities, but let's not even get into that.)
Even with all of that, Ethan is a major threat, reasons for which Locke already helpfully pointed out in the last episode. He knows the island better than they do. To him, they're just a bunch of scared people with sticks. And yes, now they have guns -- and only a hundred rounds. If they had captured him, and he had escaped, something that with his strengths was probably inevitable ... well, if I were him, I would now know they had guns, and I'd take them or the ammo with me.
In any event, there's Charlie.
Charlie still bears the scars of Ethan's attempt on his life, both physically and mentally. He feels he has failed Claire, whom he swore to protect only minutes before Ethan abducted them both. And being confronted with the man who killed him and abducted his best friend on the island cannot have put him in the best frame of mind.
You come face to face with the man who murdered you. What do you do?
Yes, maybe you could hold back from killing him in revenge. Maybe. We all like to think we're better people than that, but we're also sitting at home in front of our computers, cozy and comfy with junk food and loud music on a Saturday afternoon. We're not trapped on an island, with no escape from a dangerous madman, a person who's already threatened your life and the lives of others. At this point, what is the difference between Ethan and the polar bears, aside from the fact that Ethan might give them information?
And not only that, but there's also the protection aspect for Charlie. His main goal right now is making up for his earlier failure by protecting Claire. And let me tell you, this whole situation wouldn't disturb me so much and I might not be backing him up so much if this weren't the second time in three months a pregnant woman in the real world has been attacked for her unborn child. And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But that's not the same thing." No, in the details, it's not. But in the broader spectrum, it's still a woman being attacked or abducted so that her unborn child can be taken from her. (I'd love to discuss alternate theories on Ethan's motivations, but so far, the writers really haven't given us anything else to work with.) In this instance, the victim had to go so far as to kill the woman attacking her for the child. In the first, the victim didn't succeed. If Ethan is in the same mindset as both of these attackers, then keeping him alive is far too dangerous. (Now, granted, he kept Claire for days and didn't take the child, but it's possible that he was either waiting for her to come to term and deliver naturally before "disposing" of her, or she's just as important as her child to his plans.)
As for the answers they could have gotten from Ethan, what's to say the castaways can't get the same answers or better from Danielle? Considering both her and Ethan's physical ages, she's probably been there longer, and she's seeing it from a saner perspective -- the perspective of the victimized woman. Now would be a good time for Sayid and some of the other castaways to take a trip to find Danielle and ask her anything they might have wanted to learn from Ethan, but probably wouldn't have gotten a straight answer to.
In the end, the castaways might not be as vehement about asking questions of Ethan than they might think. Asking questions of Ethan -- how long he's been there, what he really wants, etc. -- establishes a permanence in their stay on the island that they might not want to confront. Yes, they are realistic enought to know that help isn't coming soon, or at all, but they haven't gone back to question Danielle yet, almost as if they're ignoring her. And why not? She's been there sixteen years, and looks it. Who wants serious confirmation of something that long-lasting? Aside from the maps and notes Sayid boosted, they've pushed her entirely from their mind aside from the occasional comment in discussions which quickly turn back to other topics. It's bad enough facing that you might be on that island for not weeks or months, but maybe years and frighteningly enough, possibly decades.
*exhales*
Sorry. Had to rant. :)
Therein lies the problem.
They may have been able to get some answers from the guy. Charlie had a point in that regard. We're talking about a guy who lied that he was another one of of the castaways, who masqueraded for weeks as one of their own without bothering to either share information or reveal who he really was. And he did all of this to kidnap a pregnant woman, presumably to take her baby. Does anyone honestly think that he would talked under interrogation, and if he did, would his answers have been truthful and complete? No. Considering his past history, his answers would have been questionable and probably not the entire story. At this point, Danielle has more of a truthful history than Ethan ever did, and considering how physically tough and mentally unstable he seemed to be, I don't think Sayid's torture techniques would have worked.
Also, I doubt a guy who's been living on that island for God knows how long (and may, in fact, have the same sort of "disease" that Danielle's people had) is all that sane. As a comparison, you have Danielle, who is just as mentally unbalanced due to "cabin fever" as Ethan was but is relatively harmless. When I say that, it's because she has not of yet breached the castaways and their safety to attack them. Ethan weaseled his way into their midst, after seeing their plane crash and -- since they checked the manifest for the funeral service -- watching them for a while before joining their group. And he did all of that with a malicious intent, unlike Danielle, who has not re-emerged from the jungle. We're talking about a sociopath here, and, if he had succeeded in his attempt to murder Charlie, a serial killer. (Actually, he'd have to kill three before he's even considered a serial killer by the proper authorities, but let's not even get into that.)
Even with all of that, Ethan is a major threat, reasons for which Locke already helpfully pointed out in the last episode. He knows the island better than they do. To him, they're just a bunch of scared people with sticks. And yes, now they have guns -- and only a hundred rounds. If they had captured him, and he had escaped, something that with his strengths was probably inevitable ... well, if I were him, I would now know they had guns, and I'd take them or the ammo with me.
In any event, there's Charlie.
Charlie still bears the scars of Ethan's attempt on his life, both physically and mentally. He feels he has failed Claire, whom he swore to protect only minutes before Ethan abducted them both. And being confronted with the man who killed him and abducted his best friend on the island cannot have put him in the best frame of mind.
You come face to face with the man who murdered you. What do you do?
Yes, maybe you could hold back from killing him in revenge. Maybe. We all like to think we're better people than that, but we're also sitting at home in front of our computers, cozy and comfy with junk food and loud music on a Saturday afternoon. We're not trapped on an island, with no escape from a dangerous madman, a person who's already threatened your life and the lives of others. At this point, what is the difference between Ethan and the polar bears, aside from the fact that Ethan might give them information?
And not only that, but there's also the protection aspect for Charlie. His main goal right now is making up for his earlier failure by protecting Claire. And let me tell you, this whole situation wouldn't disturb me so much and I might not be backing him up so much if this weren't the second time in three months a pregnant woman in the real world has been attacked for her unborn child. And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But that's not the same thing." No, in the details, it's not. But in the broader spectrum, it's still a woman being attacked or abducted so that her unborn child can be taken from her. (I'd love to discuss alternate theories on Ethan's motivations, but so far, the writers really haven't given us anything else to work with.) In this instance, the victim had to go so far as to kill the woman attacking her for the child. In the first, the victim didn't succeed. If Ethan is in the same mindset as both of these attackers, then keeping him alive is far too dangerous. (Now, granted, he kept Claire for days and didn't take the child, but it's possible that he was either waiting for her to come to term and deliver naturally before "disposing" of her, or she's just as important as her child to his plans.)
As for the answers they could have gotten from Ethan, what's to say the castaways can't get the same answers or better from Danielle? Considering both her and Ethan's physical ages, she's probably been there longer, and she's seeing it from a saner perspective -- the perspective of the victimized woman. Now would be a good time for Sayid and some of the other castaways to take a trip to find Danielle and ask her anything they might have wanted to learn from Ethan, but probably wouldn't have gotten a straight answer to.
In the end, the castaways might not be as vehement about asking questions of Ethan than they might think. Asking questions of Ethan -- how long he's been there, what he really wants, etc. -- establishes a permanence in their stay on the island that they might not want to confront. Yes, they are realistic enought to know that help isn't coming soon, or at all, but they haven't gone back to question Danielle yet, almost as if they're ignoring her. And why not? She's been there sixteen years, and looks it. Who wants serious confirmation of something that long-lasting? Aside from the maps and notes Sayid boosted, they've pushed her entirely from their mind aside from the occasional comment in discussions which quickly turn back to other topics. It's bad enough facing that you might be on that island for not weeks or months, but maybe years and frighteningly enough, possibly decades.
*exhales*
Sorry. Had to rant. :)
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no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 10:47 pm (UTC)Also, the Other Man theory? Is nice. But on my metro ride today, I was mentally rearranging letters, and you know what?
Ethan could also be
THE ROMAN
or just bigger THAN ROME.
Hmm. Maybe he's from an ancient civilization?
Hehe, sorry. My brain does these things while I'm riding the metro. It can't help itself!
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:43 pm (UTC)I don't blame him for what he did. Ethan was a danger. Who is to say what he told them would be the truth? The danger he posed to the group far outweighed any answers he could/might have given them about his origins. He would have gone after Claire again. He would have killed again. The island had no jails, they had no where to lock him away for what he did (Boone and Locke are still diggung up that underground thing, which is where I would have suggested putting Ethan after it had been explored, but the problem would be what to do with him until then). Their options were sadly limited and Charlie simply provided them with a violent solution.
Poor Charlie, though... I feel for him.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:51 pm (UTC)Seriously. Smart money kills him so he can't, you know, *get away*.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:01 pm (UTC)But no, there's no way in hell he'd give them factual information. He'd just bide his time until he could get away, then go back to killing people and stalking Claire and her wee unborn miracle baby.
And God love him, Boone would probably be on sentry duty at the time, and fall asleep. Or trip over something.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:02 pm (UTC)Which would be kind of cool, actually. Maybe he's just been doing that Obi-Wan Kenobi Scare-the-Sand-People screamy thingie. XD
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:53 pm (UTC)If Sawyer'd done it they'd probably have lynched him.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 06:58 pm (UTC)If Sawyer would have done it, he would have been even more of a pariah than he is now. And then he actually made good arguments as to why keeping Ethan alive is stupid, and they'd call him names or something. *eye roll*
no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 01:22 am (UTC)Sawyer was up the front with the gun, and has shown that he will use it at the slightest chance but I think you're right, the group would have been able to sit on their high horse and condem Sawyer when he was 'supposed' to shoot Ethan, as they wern't going to 'hurt' him and would be blameless.
I think there would have been a point after capturing Ethan, if that was ever going to happen, and talking, I don't belive they would have either tortured or got any answers, where they would have been able to hurt him.
He is far too good at manipulation, instead of hitting Charlie he holds him up, instead of breaking through the gards through Boon, and having them blame Boon, he found a way to just make them all useless.
I agree with all that has been put here, Charlie did the right thing. He also needed to break out from the patern of others not 'giving him a gun', he has proven to him self twice now that he is capable of following through on a promise.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 09:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:04 pm (UTC)I can't condemn his actions, even though from an outsider's perspective, they do not appear thought-out, or indeed sane. Ethan nearly killed him, kidnapped Claire for God knows what, and oh yes, is an utter psycho. What was he supposed to do, turn him over to the proper authorities?
Yes, perhaps emptying the barrel of a gun into a man's chest isn't the most logical or civilised course of action, but I hardly think the whole 'taking the law into their hands and planning torture' thing the others had going would win them any brownie points with Amnesty International, you know? At least Charlie had solid reasons.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:18 pm (UTC)Although Crazy Island Bondage is never a bad thing.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 01:25 am (UTC)He's gonna come baaaaack and the question will be WHAT MAD SCIENTIST IS CONTROLLING THE ROBOT ETHANS?!!1!!
no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 09:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 09:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 09:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 10:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:32 pm (UTC)And that's important.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:34 pm (UTC)because it's hella sexybecause we need to see him with a weapon for creative purposes. *innocent eyes*no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 07:51 pm (UTC)(I've friended you; hope you don't mind.)
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 08:14 pm (UTC)All your points are really good and should be etched on any Charlie haters eye-lids. Besides, these guys are just mad because they thought they were getting some info on the big mystery and now they didn't ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 08:28 pm (UTC)Also, I can't believe people are calling Charlie a moron for that. He had more self-restraint than I would have in that situation. Empty the clip into Ethan, and then I'd probably go and kick the corpse several times for good measure. :P
no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 09:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 11:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 09:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-12 11:48 pm (UTC)I like the "sheep in wolf's clothing" theory put out my WM and think it would be the best plot twist in the universe if it came out to be true, but ultimately I'm not going to hold my breath. Even if the writers retconned it so that Scott was somehow infected, the manner in which Ethan killed him ruins it for me.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 01:12 am (UTC)Although I probably would have done a quick torture, i.e:
Me: Tell us everything.
Ethan: No.
Me: *shoots him in crotch/leg* Tell us everything.
Ethan: BWAHAHAHA CRAZY MAN ME! I EAT YOUR FACE!
Me: *shrugs* Okay. *shoots him in head*
Just to make a point :p
no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 02:30 am (UTC)If WM's theory about Ethan is right, well, while I like it, that'd be a helluva retcon. And I do think we'll see more of Ethan or Ethan types before this ends; too good to pass up!
no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 02:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 05:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 05:18 am (UTC)Captured Ethan would spent twenty-four straight hours straining at his bonds and then snap the neck of the first one or five people he sees.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-13 09:41 pm (UTC)Here via
no subject
Date: 2005-02-14 09:56 pm (UTC)