(no subject)

[apocalypsos]

So hiddenw brought up the Supernatural friending meme that's been going on, with all of the non-Wincest folk friending one another. And I do think it's a great idea, but I guess the best description of what I'm feeling about the whole thing is ... worried? I don't know.

First of all, before I say anything else, I do have to say that I do like the concept of the meme. If you're not into the Wincest and the mere mention of it is enough to squick you, it makes sense to try and find people who aren't going to talk about it. That's perfectly fair and, considering the fact that the pro-Wincest people are apparently the majority, probably a good idea. It sure as hell makes up for the fact that the rest of this fandom is made up of pervs. (Yes, we're all pervs. Anybody who says they're into Wincest but not a perv is not accepting their freaky side and frightens me just a tad.)

I think what's worrying me about the whole thing is if it's going to lead to people not reading Wincest writers even when they're not writing Wincest. I mean, look at me. I'm pro-Wincest. Frankly, this is one of the few fandoms I could buy an incestuous relationship in, because that family is amazingly fucked-up, the brothers have only ever had each other (and their dad, but really), and they both have an amazing amount of love for one another. And while they're fine just the way they are, the step from "loving brothers" to "fucking brothers" honestly isn't that far. Nobody's saying it would be a healthy relationship, because they would be brothers who were fucking one another, or that it HAS to go that far, just that it could, that it's a plausible stretch with these characters. (On a side note, that's probably why I can write Project Runway RPS but not the WB RPS I want to -- because the boysex or possibility thereof is in the canon. Or at least, because I know the canon better. ;))

But what I was getting at is that as pro-Wincest as I am, only one of the eleven Supernatural stories I currently have written and posted is Wincest. And almost every great Wincest writer I've read isn't writing only Wincest. That's what's throwing me off. That authors may get ignored over the Wincest, and not the stories with the Wincest in 'em themselves.

The friending meme gives you a safe list of people who are only writing non-Wincest stories, which is great. You know exactly who you can read and discuss the show with who's not going to bring up the naughtybrothersex. But then there are people who write Wincest, gen, and maybe even a little het (*raises hand*), and what happens in that case? I know not all of the people who've done the friending meme are going to say, "She writes Wincest, so I'll just avoid all of her stuff," and it's probably not going to happen, but still. Hell, I'll write anything, since it's taken me a while but I've realized that the only real squick I have left is bad writing.

It also kind of leads me to another thought, which is how Wincest can even be avoided in this fandom. I think the thing that worries me about the stance of, "Thanks, I'm not really into the naked leapfrog, so I'll just sit over here and play hopscotch," which is a perfectly acceptable stance considering who's playing the naked leapfrog, is that it reminds me a little of the early days of Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike in BtVS fandom. In the beginning, everybody respectfully disagreed, and by the time I was starting to move on, both sides were still lobbing occasional potshots at one another from the other side of fandom. I just love this fandom to itty bitty pieces and don't want that to happen here, I guess.

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into this. I just needed to get that off my chest, is all.

(In summation, the non-Wincest people are friendly and great and deserve to be able to not deal with squicky stuff, the Wincest people are lots of fun and admit they're pervs but can't swear enough that they mean well, and I'm a Libra. As if you couldn't tell.)

In related news, I'll get to the fic titles meme either later on today or tomorrow, promise. I just want to get my next naughtybrothersex story out of the way. :)

Comments

[scribblinlenore.livejournal.com]

I am SUCH a perv that it's hard for me to wrap my little brain around people being so squicked by the Wincest they need a safe list of peoples who will never so much as mention it. *g*

[chandri.livejournal.com]

I'm not even really in this particular fandom and I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it. These people know they're in... like... fandom, in general, right? There is no escaping the pervyness. ;)

[scribblinlenore.livejournal.com]

There is no escaping the pervyness. ;)

Exactly! And who'd want to anyway? *bg*

[storydivagirl.livejournal.com]

::goes to happy place:: Yeah, you and your evil perviness, ruining my friends list. Hee.

::loves::

My problem with writers like you writing the wincest is I have to remind myself NOT to read it. Because I love your writing, but I can't...

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

I'm not in Supernatural, but I can understand the non Wincest people. People shouldn't have to defend why they don't like something. In addition, if they feel so strongly about it that they don't want to see it on their friends list, then they should know who to defriend in order to have that to happen. I would prefer that than to feel upset because someone on my flist posted a big old Wincest o thon on their lj without a cut tag.

I'm a little surprised that I said the above, because I'm all for people loving whatever they like, but incest is up there with chan for a lot of poeple. Of course in reality we might be more stringent about our approval of it, but in fandom we suspend our belief, blah blah. The reality is that incest is sensitive for people for the same reason chan is: societal taboo, and a lot of times it hits closer to home.

The big loser in this are the people who only write occasional Wincest. A lot of people like myself who don't really like incest will tolerate it on the flist by skipping it, but there are people who don't want anything do to with it, and they'd rather cut Solomon's baby in half. That's their right, and I support it. They're gonna miss our on some good gen and slash, unless they use recs or an archive.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Oh, my sentiment exactly. God knows anybody who doesn't want to shouldn't have to put up with incest as a subject, but what's going to end up happening is that unless they get recced by the right people, a lot of good gen or het stories written by Wincest writers are going to get looked over.

And that's not even counting the people who read Wincest, approve of it, and discuss it, but don't write it.

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah. One can only hope that those who don't get the non-wincest stories because of their limited friendslist don't end up feeing like they're being victimized. I always got the idea that this was the case in Buffy. People felt put out because they had to be exposed to ther people gushing and writing about their OTP which happened to be opposit to theirs.

I used to ship Methos/Right Hand, but that doesn't mean I feel put out because my flist adores Duncan/Methos (WHATever. Right hand is the only way to go!).

[amaresu]

I don't know what you're talking about. It was left-hand all the way. That way he could flip through channels, grab a beer, or do research at the same time.

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Why you gotta go and say that? Now we have to fight. And I cheat.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

But, quite sanely, somebody doesn't like Wincest, so they friend a non-wincest Supernatural writing community (like, I don't know supernatural_gen). Wincest writers post their non wincest stories over at those communities, non-wincest lovers read it, everybody is happy.

End of story?

I do think that some people have prejudices and are afraid to read a gen story if they are prejudiced against the pairing the author is writing in their non-gen pieces. But I guess you just have to try to win them over.

I swear, trollprincess, this is my last pointless and long post in your lj

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

That would, IMHO, be the best way to do it. I have noticed in fandom, however, a strange tendency for people to skip the logical option because they feel a need to distance themselves from that they find distasteful ZOMG, like shippers who refuse to have anything to do with people who wrote one story in a sea of fic that didn't agree with their ship (coughHPcough). It's like people in your gen agreement. In the end, they are the ones losing out. Or maybe they have more fic than they have time to read even without all the gen stories by wincesters. You never know.

What if people want to talk about the show, as opposed to writing fic and they don't want wincest in their peanut butter? I'm just saying so a bunch of people find each other and friend each other based on a fandom trait. I wonder really, because I haven't seen the meme anywhere on lj, if it's even generating vitriol. Because I like wank. La la la.

Re: I swear, trollprincess, this is my last pointless and long post in your lj

[thelana.livejournal.com]

ZOMG, like shippers who refuse to have anything to do with people who wrote one story in a sea of fic that didn't agree with their ship (coughHPcough)

*raises hand* I'm known to occasionally be guilty about that as well.

I still think that it is somewhat different here.

If you have shipping wars, with two rivaling ships, there is a deep difference of opinion regarding character interpretation.

It often means that I think that character X is of essential importance to character Y and character Z isn't. If somebody who ships Y/Z writes a gen fic the chances is that their conviction that character Z, not X, is the essential point of character Y's life will show up in their fic as a point of view. If I strongly disagree with that makes sense that I avoid their fic because I know I'm not on the same boat with them at all.

But here? In Supernatural there is no rival pairing. Everybody agree on who the important characters are, that they are important to each other, that their relationship is what people want to read about, it's just a question of intensity. I have met tons of SPN slash writers who write lots of angsty gen and solo pieces and don't reference wincest at all, fic that explores the role of the father and such.

Basically what I'm saying is that on Supernatural it should be easier for people to get into the gen fic of wincesters because there is no rival pairing involved.

But hey, if there are really so few gen writers, isn't there hope that people will eventually be forced to read the gen of people who also write wincest and make their piece with it as long as you get those writers to crosspost?

[xphoenixrising.livejournal.com]

I joined up because of the lack of gen in the fandom (more is being written/discovered though, which is nice). It's so hard to find and now I have a list of writers who write it. What can I say? With just two very hot brothers on the show, there'll be Wincest... We have to deal with it. But wow is there a lot and honestly? It's tiring wading through all the comms trying to find a story, which is why we have sn_gen and sn_het and brotherlove or whichever. Just not many writers are posting there yet.

We're not saying we hate everyone who writes 'cest. We're all aware that there's writers out there who write gen and stuff. This is just an easy... amiling list if you will, of people who'll be able to pass along the non-Wincest stuff. At least this is how I see it. If someone on my flist is talking about the Wincest, I just skip past it. Not a big deal. But for others it's getting frustrating for them.

Don't worry!

[xphoenixrising.livejournal.com]

I meant to write 'Wincest writers who write gen/het' /correction.

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

I think what's worrying me about the whole thing is if it's going to lead to people not reading Wincest writers even when they're not writing Wincest.

I honestly can't envision this becoming a problem. Seeking out non-Wincest people, either through a friending meme or through one's own efforts, is not the same as actively avoiding all Wincest people. There's no corresponding defriending meme to go with the friending meme. Yes, it's possible that a person for whom avoiding all mentions of incest is a really important issue could build up an flist composed entirely of non-Wincest fans and restrict their fannish participation only to what shows up on their flist. But if somebody really feels that strongly about it, then missing some good stories by occasional Wincest writers is probably an acceptable loss for them. And in the end, is it anyone's business but theirs? It's not as if the Wincest writers are so starved for an audience that losing couple of readers here and there is going to leave them laboring in obscurity.

Besides, I think people whose fandom participation is that narrow are pretty thin on the ground. And for the rest... well, I doubt many people would skip over a story posted on spn_gen, or even a clearly labeled non-Wincest story on a mixed com, just because they know the author has written Wincest on other occasions.

(Though I really wish that authors would stop shooting themselves in the foot with labels that say things like "gen, but Wincest if you squint." Readers who want to see the Wincest can squint on their own initiative, and readers who don't want it are just going to get turned off.)

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

I lurve the Wincest. Lurve it. But I did the friending meme because there were a ton of SPN fans on there that I hadn't seen hanging around the same places I'd been hanging. New networks, yay!

In my post, I told people straight up that I read and enjoy Wincest (but since I'm not a writer, they wouldn't find it on my LJ), and no one gave me any shit about it. As in, "no', we're the pureblood non-Wincest club so you can't join." Nothing like that. Just lots of new friends who like Sam and Dean.

That's not to say that the fandom won't have its breakdowns at a later date, but I think it's early to get upset about this. In fact, I've mostly seen both "sides" worrying that the other "side" will take it the wrong way. Since I swing both ways, my solution is cross-pollination! (But perhaps I'm too naively optimistic, as usual. I'm such a Pollyanna, I'm oblivious to most of the bad feelings swirling around in a fandom until I trip over a post like this.)

P.S.-I love your writing of all flavors! Can't wait for the newest!

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say I'm upset so much as I'm just having bad flashbacks to my BtVS years. And I will produce a firstborn child if it means I can trade it in and have THAT not happen again. (I was a Buffy/Spike fancier for the longest time, so I got the occasional, "Oh, my God, you're infatuated with serial killers, aren't you?!" from the other side. And if I'm remembering correctly, comments like that were coming from the actual writing staff.)

For the record, I can't think of anybody I've met so far in this fandom who's not beyond awesome. It's not bad feelings regarding either side of the fandom, because nobody's being anything other than horribly considerate at this point. :)

P.S. HEE! Thanks. Now if only my newest would just END eventually, that'd be nice. *is already looking at three thousand words and may need to write twice as many more ... sigh*

[storydivagirl.livejournal.com]

I understand what you're saying, but I like to believe that people who want good fic will be able to get past the "gen fic by a wincest author thing" (of course, who knows with humanity these days). I took part in the nonwincest friending meme because it's just not my thing, but I still have a lot of friends on my list that are into it. I just skip those entries and go about my merry way and then read the other stuff that I love from them.

I just get sad when my favorite writers are writing all these wincest stories because I know they're probably so damn good, but alas, I just can't get past the whole "dude, they're related" thing.

[squee1123.livejournal.com]

im pro-Wincest but I cant write for shit...I leave that up to eveyone else because they do it so well.

[mirichan.livejournal.com]

Hope you won't mind but right after this comment I'm gonna friend you.

For the first time ever, I'm actually reading incest and enjoy it because it's something quite possible in this particular series.

But I also like reading everything... I have tons of fics already saved on my hard disk (het/gen/wincest) and love them all... actually, I discovered you a few days ago only and the fics I read from you were ALL non-wincest and all lovely [in case I forget to write any feedback... they were great] and now you have some wincest which makes things even better... but I find it sad to think that people could come in later and go "oh, she writes wincest... let's avoid" because man, they would miss on so much.

This is why I honestly can say I'm avoiding fandoms, these days... I'm here for the boys, the fics, the images, etc... but I'm trying real hard to avoid all meta entries and having to take sides [I'm a Dean & Sam fan... I love both boys, for different reasons... and at times I want to smash both their heads for different reasons but I always always love them]... I just want to enjoy my first TV show in like 5 years... and my first SLASH fandom to boot... unfortunately memes, even if apparently created with a good reason at the core, seldom stays that kind and this is the kind that has the potential of creating a rift in this new fandom...

[denorios.livejournal.com]

I'm a wee bit of a lurker here, but I just wanted to delurk and say that before I read your fic I was definitely in the no-Wincest camp. And now? Well, you've completely converted me! So dude, don't give up hope, 'cause as long as there are awesome writers like you out there maybe a few more hold-outs can be converted to the dark side! ;)