Repeating this for my own reference.

[apocalypsos]

I'm going to repeat what I said over on janissa11's LJ.

It feels to me like Kripke is, to use her words, changing horses in midstream.

What John said to Dean ... it's awfully generic, isn't it? "Kill him if you can't protect him," basically. It feels a lot like a letdown, especially considering how much we expected to get revealed tonight. I know a lot of people weren't surprised that "Croatoan" cut off like it did, but come ON.

See, here's what I've been thinking for a while.

Kripke planned this from the very beginning with Sam turning out to be the child of the Demon. John was probably possessed or the Demon took the form of John or Mary actively cheated on John with the Demon -- whatever. But from the beginning the big thing was supposed to be "Sam is the Demon's son." And maybe he thought he was being edgy or something and thought, "No one will ever figure it out!"

And then he went on the internet or ran into fans or something and ... hey, everyone figured it out.

And a LOT of people weren't thrilled with the prospect of Sam not being John's son at ALL.

Uh-oh.

So, new plan. Everybody's expecting Sam to be half-demon. Fine, we'll do something else. But we have all this set-up! And we've filmed a bunch of stuff and -- okay, we don't know what we're going to do specifically, but we have a general idea. So we'll just work with the general idea -- the Demon needs these kids, they have to turn bad, etc. -- and get specific about WHAT they are later.

Can we do that?

OF COURSE we can do that! I know we were going to have this great big reveal after "Croatoan" but we'll do something else.

What something else?

Later, damn it. For now, just write with this in mind -- "Sam might be a threat someday."

Excuse me, but isn't hand-to-hand-combat, breaking-and-entering, caliber-identifying, ass-kicking Sam a threat now?

SILENCE! I HAVE SPOKEN. Now get me a muffin and some truffles and a pinata!

Uh, why?

NEVER QUESTION ME! PARTICULARLY ABOUT JARED'S COCK.

... er, perhaps I should not script out episodes of "Everyone in Hollywood is deranged" in my head.

I'm probably wrong about the whole thing, but ... well, that's the way it feels to me. Like they're going to Canada from Texas and avoiding the snowstorm in the Rockies by driving through Mississippi instead.

Comments

[exsequar.livejournal.com]

*wrinkles nose* Either you're right, or Kripke is kind of an asshole. All that build up was, really, for nothing - I mean, the drama the "revelation" produced was nice, but it wasn't anything concrete at all! If they decide later that John actually said MORE and Dean's STILL hiding that, well - I'll be pissed, because Dean wouldn't DO that to Sam! You know?

And the demon specifically said to John "You know the truth right? About Sammy?" well, why wouldn't John use his last moments to pass on that specific Truth? Dean maybe having to kill Sam is NOT A Truth. That's clearly not what the demon was referring to. Now I'm a bit apprehensive to see how they get that truth out in the open, if Dean apparently doesn't know it. And I hope to hell he doesn't, because if he does, then he's STILL being dishonest with Sam, and that would piss me off.

See, this is why I did not spoil myself for "The Secret". I could tell it was going to be pretty damn lame, but I knew that whatever Sam and Dean would do with it would make it worth it. And it DID. Their angst and their woobieness made this episode FANTASTIC - while the actual basis of the whole thing is shaky at best. I bow at the altar of Jensen and Jared, honestly - not Kripke.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

That's the thing that bothers me the most. They work in a profession in which they could be possessed by demons or forced to attack someone when "persuaded" by a crazy ghost. Dean possibly having to kill Sam if he can't protect him isn't a secret, it's a WORK HAZARD. This is the same kind of problem a person in a normal job wears steel-toed shoes and a hard hat for. This should not be something new and shocking for either one of them.

I keep looking at the plotline and the reveal of the revelation from a writing perspective and seriously, this is the kind of shit *I* try not to pull in a story when I decide to change the plot midstream. It doesn't always work, but still.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Eh, I can't say I ever had much hope the whole demon side of the mytharc was going to make sense, so this doesn't bother me much - the secret was emotional in nature, and allowed for some prime emoporn, and will continue to do so, and *that* means more to me than nephilim or demonspawn or any of that crap. I'd rather they keep it vague for now and come up with something cool later than lay down a bunch of stuff and then totally retcon it.

Possibly my time with Chris Carter, Joss Whedon, JJ Abrams, and Aaron Sorkin has made me bitter mellow.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

My problem isn't with the revelation itself, but Sam's reaction to it. It's too emotional. He's got reason to be bothered because Dean didn't tell him, but precisely what Dean told him doesn't warrant a huge blowup and him sneaking out in the middle of the night.

I find it very hard to believe that either of these boys never worried that their brother might become possessed and they might have to shoot them. Hell, look at "Devil's Trap". The Demon possessed John and Sam was on the other side of the Colt. They deal with the supernatural on a regular occurrence, making them good available targets, and while it might never have happened in the family before the threat of possession had to have come up in warnings. It just feels like a somewhat more serious version of, "Dad said to make sure that you always wear steel-toed shoes and if you don't I should take you to the hospital."

Is it really that much more shocking a comment because it refers to the Demon's plans for Sam? Hell, Sam's even SAID IT HIMSELF. At the end of "Simon Said", if I'm remembering correctly.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I think that it was John's last words, and that Dean kept them a secret are also what is causing Sam's reaction. And also, yeah, risk of possession, which isn't necessarily a death sentence - the guy from Phantom Traveler survived (and the threat was certainly mentioned there), as did John. I just think John laying it bare like that - you might have to kill him - was something new, because for 23 years it had been, you have to do everything you can to protect him.

I think for Sam, thinking it himself is different from having Dean think it about him - that's like outside confirmation, that makes it more real.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Sure, but Dean's already said that he's afraid of the same thing that Sam is afraid of -- that Sam might turn into a monster -- under Andy's spell in "Simon Said". So it's not like Sam doesn't know that much. Possibly having to kill him because he's under the influence is the next step. It's not a particularly desirable next step but Sam's an educated intelligent person and regardless of how uncomfortable it might be to think it Sam thinks of every possible outcome in these situations.

And yeah, it's not a death sentence, but Sam's already shown he's immune to that demonic virus. It's not exactly a scientific study but if I were Dean I'd be thinking that it's a good sign that Sam can't be possessed. A possession, he can deal with. You say some Latin, you sprinkle some holy water, the demon's gone. But what if you can't get rid of the demon that's in your brother's body?

Last words or not, they just seem wrong as something profound out of John. I mean, I can get why they might haunt Dean -- Dean's all about protecting Sammy -- but I still think there's something else John didn't tell Dean. That can't be the whole truth John told the Demon he knew.

I can see Sam being pissed that Dean lied about John's last words. But that pissed about those last words? From the same guy who only a few short hours before his death was telling his son to shoot him to kill the Demon? I just have a REALLY hard time that Sam would be surprised John would tell Dean that. It feels way off to me.

[baileytc.livejournal.com]

My reaction exactly. I got so little pay-off from Whedon on most of the Big Secrets he raised during "Buffy" that with SPN, I've chosen to become much more invested in what the secret means emotionally than what the secret is and what it means in the context of the 'verse. I'd rather savor the "emoporn" for a while than turn the bulk of my attention to dissecting the logic of whatever it is that the secret turns out to be.

As for the "haven't they always known they might have to off each other?" issue: Sure, they know intellectually the dangers that the job carries with it. But for John to explicitly tell Dean that if he can't keep Sam from turning evil, he has to kill Sam? And for Dean to TELL SAM that their dad told Dean he has to kill Sam if he can't save him? That's...huge.

As a real-life example: We know intellectually that if our parent/spouse/sibling/child/whatever is in an accident and rendered brain-dead, we could be in the position of having to make a terrible choice regarding whether to remove life support. But if your loved one talks to you about it--directly, seriously--isn't that a big emotional deal? You have to deal with that concept, not as something abstract that odds are won't happen, but as something real and immediate. Obviously, you don't have to DO it right then, but you have to think about it, think about what it means to make that decision, the circumstances that would surround it.

John saying it to Dean, and then Dean saying it to Sam, particularly in light of the events of "Croatoan," turned an abstract what-if into a concrete possibility. It's not whether something's going to try to turn Sam evil; it's when. And if Dean can't stop it, then he's been told by the ultimate authority, his dad, to kill his brother. So much for "nothing bad's going to happen to you while I'm around."

It's worth noting that John didn't tell Sam the same thing about Dean. This isn't about the hazards of the job. It's about the hazards of whatever Sam is and the choices that Dean will have to make.

[elucreh.livejournal.com]

YES. EXACTLY.

All that build-up for: take care of him, even if it means killing him?

Either John was a secret-keeping bastard to the last or Dean is still hiding things (and I don't think he is, cause it would be seriously OOC) or KRIPKE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S PRODUCING, HERE.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I'm sticking with John still keeping secrets. Now, THAT'S in character, at least.

[dhyi.livejournal.com]

I know. They seriously need a big bang to surprise us now. But seemingly every possible scenario's out in the fanfics, I really can't think of anything that'll be NEW to us.

I think they just have to get the hell over with it (sam is the demon son! or maybe sam is an angel! or whatever), and do some plotting about what happens after that.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

WORD from the non-fan of Supernatural.

I watched it tonight, chiefly because nothing else was on. (I tend to like the fanfic more than the canon.) So I watched. And Dean chokes out that Dad told him that he would have to kill Sam if he couldn't protect him.

And I'm sitting there thinking, "Um, how is that different from EVERY OTHER DAY IN YOUR FRELLING LIVES?"

Also, I've spent a lot of time in the Jossverse. I've seen the whole "decent person might be a demon" thing before with Willow's lover Tara. Not to mention demons who turned decent and fought (even died) for humans--Lorne, Angel, Spike, Anya. Hell, even Slayers were part demon.

So "Sam might be a demon"? So not an issue. I don't care if he's a demon, or part demon; most of his choices have been moral ones. And even I know that he's capable of great, self-sacrificing love.

I was worried about Gordon doing severe damage to either Sam or Dean, though. (And I loved Sam's way of "taking care of the problem." Way to be law-abiding and vicious at the same time.)

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

And a LOT of people weren't thrilled with the prospect of Sam not being John's son at ALL.

WTF I do not understand this at all. If anything, it just makes me love the show even more. For reals. I mean, even if Sam wasn't his biological son, John loved him like one. He wasn't the World's Best Dad by any standards, but he loved him, and tried to protect him as well as any father in his situation would, and DUDE THAT IS AWESOMESAUCE.

*packs little truffles with hearts all over them, and a bright colourful Pinata into a big box and posts it to Kripke express :D*

[incredulity.livejournal.com]

I'll admit, I'm one of those people who didn't want it revealed that the Demon was Sam's father. I was a little sick with the thought that would be the secret.

And if it had worked out that way...it wouldn't have been something that John had known all along, it would have been something he'd figured out relatively recently - because he was still trying to "find out the truth" in Home.

[tabaqui]

Myself, i think Dean's still holding out. He told Sam the part that's bugging him the most - the part that gives him nightmares. *Kill your brother if you have to.*

I think, even in the face of posession or evil!Sam, Dean won't be able to go there. He was just gonna *die* with Sam in Croatoan. Not kill him and off himself, but *die with Sam*. So - i think Dean's still hiding something, still hoping they can figure it all out and avert it all, still keeping things back because he's secretive by nauture and he promised his dad...

So, yeah.

[clex_monkie89.livejournal.com]

Ah, watch me attempt coherent thoughts coming down off a graveyard shift.

Okay, first I wanna say that I'm very happy right now because I'm apparently not the only one who thinks The Secret was kinda a let-down. I mean, yeah, okay, John telling Dean he might have to kill Sam would perfectly explain Dean's face afterwards and his complete breakdown in Croatoa but it doesn't feel "complete" to me.

In the scene with John and Demon!Janitor (Ooh, possible cracktastic Scrubs crossover bunnies) D!J says something along the lines of "How long have you known about the children?" And while he could have been talking about them being attempted Evil!foot-soldiers I really think maybe there was more to it.

To make that slightly less muddled? I think maybe Dean did tell Sam what John told him, but I don't think John told him everything he knew.

And yes, Kripke totally reads the net therefor he had to know how pissed we all were at the prospect of Sammich not being a Winchester by blood.

Also? On a demi-relevant note? I think your "The Demon was John/Sam/Dean from the future come to kill Mary in order to save a bunch of other people" theory from way back was one of the very first ones I read and still my favorite. I'm still a little dissapointed that The Demon turned out to actually be a demon.

Oh crap.

[clex_monkie89.livejournal.com]

Also? Thingee.

With Sam's over-the-toppish outburst? I think most of that was to the fact that his father explicitly told his big brother he that Sam might need to die. I'm sure Sam knew it was an option (You know he and Dean have had talks like that growing up, what do to if someone got possesed or bitten by something or died a certain way) and I'm sure he even knew that one day he might have to tell Dean to kill him or let him kill himself.

Which brings me to something Gordon said in Hunted. He told Dean that John would've been man enough to kill Sam if he had to. If it really did come down to that I'm just not sure. I don't know that he would be able to kill Sam but I also don't know that he wouldn't be able to.

However. His father, who he didn't get along with real well and who gavce his life to save his big brother, told said big brother that one day he might need to kill him. I think it's the "Dad said" part that made Sam explode.

Now I want to see a fic with Sam freaking out (In a very IC and Winchester-like way) because he thinks he's part demon and Dean "comforting" him in that Dean Winchester way only he can ("Dude. Shut up you freakin' idiot. Demons don't whine and mope like you. And they have better hair. And tend to choose hot bodies. So you're safe all around.").

Have you ever seen the movie Frailty? Because that movie and this show is just so OTP. Especially now.