So I've been thinking ...

[apocalypsos]

... about last night's Supernatural, and about the promises Sam has made Dean make.

I keep thinking about the blatantly obvious, which is, "If Sam knows he might become this huge threat, why doesn't he just kill himself now?"

I think a lot of that has to do with Dean, and not in a "passing the buck" sort of way.

It all comes down to what their dad said. Dean was going to have to save Sam, and if he didn't he was going have to kill him. IF he didn't. Sam has faith in a lot of things -- he has faith in God and prayer, he has faith in the things he can research and a weapon in his hand, and he has faith in Dean. Hell, he has tremendous faith in Dean. The man has spent the last twenty-four years or so learning that his big brother will take care of him above everything. Sam is going to try his damnedest to take care of his own self and keep himself from going evil, but Dean is his protector, the guy who's there every day with him and knows him better than anyone. Dean takes care of everything whether Sam likes it or not, and Sam's just used to it.

Sure, Sam could kill himself but there's still that strong faith that Dean will fix it all that's going to keep him from doing it. So far, he's been proven right -- every time things have gone pear-shaped, Dean's fixed as much of it as he can manage. Sam is going to keep foisting off responsibility on Dean to kill him if he goes evil because he's not going to be able to kill himself. While he's himself he has his faith in Dean to stop him up to the very last minute (and his desperation that they'll both find the answers they need to save him before it all goes wrong), and as we saw last night by the time he goes evil he's sure as hell not going to turn that trigger on himself.

The thing that Sam doesn't seem to be getting is that no matter how many times he tells Dean to do it, Dean's not going to listen. Dean is not programmed like that. He can't shoot his family, can't kill them no matter if they're evil or not, and if he was brought to that point and had to do it, it'd fucking BREAK him.

Neither one of them can kill Sam and that's their whole problem.

*****

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go curl up in a ball and die. *whimper*

Comments

Yeah.

[honeybones.livejournal.com]

That rang false to me too, when Sam was begging Dean to shoot him, then picked up the gun himself. For a horrible minute I was certain he was gonna kill himself in front of Dean. FUBARing Dean for the rest of his days. Poor Deano.
If someone really wants to die, they dont hand the job off to someone else.

Re: Yeah.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

If someone really wants to die, they dont hand the job off to someone else.

EXACTLY. Especially someone they know probably won't be able to do it. Sam just has more faith in Dean saving his ass than he does in Dean killing him.

[unperfectwolf.livejournal.com]

*is agreed* Break him down into little itty bitty pieces and make him into something that is so not dean.

[cleverthylacine]

I agree with you. Dean is not going to ever be able to do this and Sam is just not suicidal.

I also cherish the faint hope that Sam does know exactly what losing him would do to Dean, and hesitates for that reason, even if he isn't aware that he's doing that.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I also cherish the faint hope that Sam does know exactly what losing him would do to Dean, and hesitates for that reason, even if he isn't aware that he's doing that.

I agree, I really believe this is a factor. Because Sam knows that he's all Dean's got left, the only thing that keeps Dean going, keeps him from breaking into a million pieces. He KNOWS. So Sam is NOT going to kill Dean by offing himself unless there is absolutely no other way to keep himself from going evil. And, of course, by the time there's absolutely no other way, Sam may very well be physically/mentally unable to to do the job. He needs to know Dean can do it, if there's nothing left to save and both of them are screwed anyway.

[myniamh.livejournal.com]

I agree with that, Sam knows Dean would fall apart if he killed himself. Maybe the hesitation is one part thinking killing himself would be wrong, one part not wanting to die if there was a slim (backed up by Dean's faith in him, however biased he is) chance they might win and one part wanting Dean to accept that Sam had to die on his own.

It's hard to judge because the majority of the conversations we've seen of this is between demon!Sam and Dean.

[kelex.livejournal.com]

Also, you were talking about faith--and I know this doesn't exactly fall under that umbrella, but you got me thinking--Sam doesn't really *know* anything except what John told Dean, and we presume (at least I do) that the information came from a demon or a source close to the demon. So we don't *know* that what John passed down to Dean and what Dean told Sam is the actual *truth.* yes, they're getting confirmation of it along the way--like Meg's Demon saying that she was done with the master plan and everything--but they still don't know anything about the big picture.

So in a way, Sam's being forced to put his faith in *John* and what John said, and if John said it has to be Dean that shoots him, for some reason, then it *has to be Dean.* Of course, it never WILL be Dean, but hey.

Not to be obtuse...

[seferin.livejournal.com]

Couldn't he simply think suicide would get him sent to hell?

Re: Not to be obtuse...

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I doubt it. Sam's got faith but not religion, if you know what I mean, so I have a hard time seeing him thinking suicide would get him sent to hell.

I also think that if he did believe that he'd take that option over Dean spending an eternity in hell for murdering him.

Would it be murder?

[seferin.livejournal.com]

Or a mercy killing? Or perhaps the taking of a life to save another. I thought it was traditional in Christianity that suicides go to hell?

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

I thought it was traditional in Christianity that suicides go to hell?

Depending on the branch of it, yeah. But then again, whether or not a mercy killing or the taking of a life to save another will get you sent to hell depends on the branch, too, since God is the only being who is supposed to decide who lives or dies. Sometimes in the hardcore branches your actions leading to the death of someone else regardless of the circumstances still counts as murder.

*points to above* Details like this are why I'm not a Christian anymore, by the way. Jesus is a great guy but a lot of his followers these days suck.

Yep.

[seferin.livejournal.com]

Its why I like Judaism. You can be an atheist and think the Bible is mistranslated allegory and still be considered a good Jew. Ironic, no?

[xlorillx.livejournal.com]

I still have that little theory in my head that the demon can control Sam to a certain extent in his actions, like, you know, a tiny devil-voice in the back of your head you argue with? I dunno, I'll have to watch the eps again to confirm it, but some of Sam's actions sure seem a little OOC for him.
But maybe that's just bad writing *laughs*

Still, speaking from that theory angle, I'd say the demon would step in every time Sam even considers killing himself, whispering to him that he can't. Just assuming the demon needs Sam for something alive. :)

On the other hand, your explanation is probably the more realistic one, though I dunno if it is actually what the writers were thinking about when they wrote this episode :D It's at least a lot more logical than anything else I've heard as an explanation to why Sam doesn't simply shoot himself.

[trinity_clare]

Honestly? I don't think that was Sam talking. I think it was Meg!demon pushing Dean's buttons. Sam's already thought about suicide - in Croatoan - so if it had really been him and he'd really thought that he needed to be stopped, I think he'd do it himself. All the angsting and "Shoot me, Dean! I told you I'd kill people!" was all the demon bringing Dean's (and Sam's) fears to life.

[tenebris.livejournal.com]

I agree. D!Meg (Sam puppet) was pushing and pushing and pushing at Dean to see if he'd actually do it. He says it was a test. Which is why though D!Meg (Sam puppet) says that she's not part of the big plan, that she's just doing this to cause Dean pain for sending her to hell--I'm not so sure I believe her.

As for Sam making Dean promise in the first place--yeah, I think that's just the idea that if he goes darkside, then he's lost the fight. He'll do anything and everything up to the death point to keep himself from that demon, but if (or so it seems these days to him, WHEN) he loses that fight, he needs to know Dean will just take him out (before he kills him). Which, yeah, Sammy hasn't learned the Croatoan lesson, has he?

[kellifer-fic.livejournal.com]

Maybe the problem is faith also, Sam doesn't want to damn himself and suicide is a mortal sin... so he needs Dean to do it because if Dean can't save him, he can at least save his soul?

I don't know... it's hot and my brain is cooking... hee. :)

[erinlin.livejournal.com]

Damn. I gotta start watching this show- I have a *thing* about brothers, and this sounds like it's guaranteed to rip my heart out through my skull.

[clex_monkie89.livejournal.com]

I've also been wondering why Sam hasn't just offed himself yet either. At first I thought maybe it was because every time he pictured it he saw himself as too far gone to want to stop. A sort of, "kill me once I start not having problems eating people's brains or arms or something."

And then Houses of the Holy confirmed that Sam prayed and was probably at least a tiny bit religious and that made me think that maybe it's that that's keeping him from doing it, because isn't it a Mortal Sin in a lot of religions to kill yourself?

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Suicide is a mortal sin, depending on the branch (the more compassionate the branch, the more of a chance people believe that suicides are sick people who are being healed on the other side by Jesus), but then Sam would be doing the same thing he's asking Dean to by eliminating a possible threat to others, which could be seen as a mercy killing to save others, and between that and all of the other things he's done to save others, it might balance out.

I tend to think of Sam as having faith rather than religion. Faith in a higher power, faith in being a good person, etc. I mean, we're talking about a guy who's fought gods and creatures from dozens of religions. I think he believes in a higher power and an afterlife and creatures who both look after humans and try to hurt them, but as for picking a specific religion? That's why I have a hard time believing Sam thinks killing himself would be a mortal sin, especially if he's destined to go evil.

And even if Sam believes that suicide is a mortal sin, his two options are:

1. Kill himself now, go to Hell, leave Dean alive but broken.
2. Go evil, have Dean kill him, take the chance that Dean will go to Hell, too.

Of course, if THOSE are your options, option C (hold out until you have more answers about the VERY vague promise your father made your brother swear to, hope for the best) looks extremely appealing.

[clex_monkie89.livejournal.com]

I think he believes in a higher power and an afterlife and creatures who both look after humans and try to hurt them, but as for picking a specific religion? That's why I have a hard time believing Sam thinks killing himself would be a mortal sin, especially if he's destined to go evil.

Ah, now I know where my line of thinking went wrong. I was under the impression that suicide being a mortal sin was one of those wide-spread things, like the great flood that's mentioned in a large majority of the cultures we know about. My knowledge of religion is very small unless talking about Egyptian or Greek pantheons and, to an extent, Judiasm.

I too think Sam is more of a generalized faith person rather than an organized religion guy, I just assumed wrong on the suicide thing.

So, in that case, I have to fall back on my original thought. Sam's afraid that one day he's going to just snap and be evil and that he wont want to stop. In which case he would have to rely on Dean to kill him for the greater good.

[exsequar.livejournal.com]

Why is being pear-shaped such a bad thing? I like pears.

(It is late and I am tired.)