I thought I was going to come home today and find out everybody got a puppy.

[apocalypsos]

I just wanted to point out that I just had not one, but two posts in a row on ye olde friends list pointing out the exact same thing in regards to the ongoing wank:

Silence does not equal consent.

I'd like to amend that with my own deft touch.

SILENCE DOES NOT FUCKING EQUAL CONSENT. JESUS JITTERBUGGING CHRIST ON A DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION PAD, PEOPLE.

Comments

[brihana25.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and wish it didn't have to be said. Particularly to other women. And not as many times as it's been said today, when people still aren't understanding.

JESUS JITTERBUGGING CHRIST ON A DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION PAD

And I don't want to detract from the seriousness of the issue, but that is just about the coolest damn turn of phrase I've ever seen.

[escritoireazul.livejournal.com]

Yes. This. It really can't be said enough.

[tripoli8.livejournal.com]

This whole thing is making me not want to act like a good person.

[theliel.livejournal.com]

Sometimes you have to hurt some people's feelings in order to ensure your and other people's safety.

[bexone.livejournal.com]

I've just been playing bubbleshooter all night because anything else kept getting interrupted by rage. Consent is the presence of a goddamn enthusiastic yes, not just the absence of an articulated no.

[themadfish.livejournal.com]

Fuckin' word.

[jacinthsong.livejournal.com]

With a cherry on top. :/

(I only belatedly started following this when I stopped skimming over SPN posts on my flists long enough to realise it wasn't just regular fandom wank. But yes.)

[lots42.livejournal.com]

Blocking the door means that no consent can be given.

[bnh.livejournal.com]

I am so glad you are saying this. I wish it didn't have to be said, but after doing sexual assault prevention work in college, I know that it does. So thank you.

[theliel.livejournal.com]

I guess this really does indicate that I had an abnormal childhood.
Still sucks when your fandom / favourite con is the source of people's learning experinces.

and once more for the cheap seats, just because no on openly complains doesn't mean that they're ok with things.

This is why my other, other extra-curricular hobbies have all sorts of rules and protocol for ensuring consent. not that it helps avoid dramu-dynes going full bore, but at least it pretexts who's goddmaned responsability it is to ask the correct questions in the correct sequence. pro-tip: it's the initiators job to make sure everything is groovy.

not that i've ever seen drunk-dramu in my own life or anything.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Silence doesn't automatically equal non-consent, either, so people should use their words to communicate.

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

YES MEANS YES. Full stop.

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

Oh, just stop it. It was your comment that caused people to have to clarify multiple times that SILENCE DOES NOT EQUAL CONSENT, so I find your comment here particularly vile.

There are so many links and excellent explanations about why what you say is hurtful, but you've either ignored everything or can't be arsed to actually comprehend it, because you obviously think being right is more important than anything else in this situation.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying this.

My reply looked more like *#*#*@*#AFKSIDNFFF!!!!! *headsmash* Yours was certainly more eloquent.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

Very true. SEriously, when long time friends keep saying Honey, I love you, but you are wrong and making an idiot of yourself, maybe it's time to stop digging that hole.

[druidchick.livejournal.com]

what are we toddlers asking for a snack????

lady, you give pagans a bad name. honestly, i am going to stop calling myself pagan just so people will NEVER associate me with you.

I have seen your posts in multiple threads and I am absolutely amazed at your ignorance and your refusal to open your eyes! I am flabbergasted at the way you hide behind the phrase "personal responsibility," a phrase I love and use on a regular basis. Right now, I'm reminding myself that most people understand that "personal responsibility" is not an excuse attack/hurt/bully others. I feel sorry for you, your children and your community.

[agent-mimi.livejournal.com]

Toddlers asking for a snack is perfect, that's exactly what it sounds like. There is so much WTF with her repeated use of "use your words."

[crowgirl13.livejournal.com]

You better be using your inside voice too.

[ladyvyola.livejournal.com]

Then since it is by your own definition ambiguous, err on the side of caution and safety and assume non-consent.

Far better to regret a missed opportunity than to regret harm done. That, after all, would be the responsible thing to do.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

+1

[eleigh.livejournal.com]

Well, damn. Who knew that to avoid so many "uncomfortable" and potentially dangerous situations we just had to use our words.

Allow me to use my words now: silence never ever EVER means consent. Consent is not implicit. Yes, yes, I should be a strong, empowered woman, and I should be able to use my words to say "no" or "this is making me uncomfortable" but let's say, for the sake of argument, that rather than being strong and empowered I freeze up out of fear or some other reason that you or I can't imagine, and I don't speak up. THAT IS NOT CONSENT.

It's not. I don't know how there is any gray area here. When it comes to anything involving sex consent is consent.

[celli]

Well, allow me to use my words to communicate here.

I DO NOT CONSENT to behavior I have specifically not agreed to.

I DO NOT CONSENT to being blamed for my attacker's actions because the word "no" didn't come out of my mouth, even though I had said no earlier, I had been awakened from a sound (and medicated) sleep, and I was too afraid to move. And don't you DARE tell me this isn't about rape. The same rules apply to sexual behavior that does not include intercourse. Yes, they do.

I DO NOT CONSENT to someone else's right to behave badly with the justification that "they didn't know for sure," simply because they chose not to confirm the consent of the people around them.

You know what equals consent? THE WORD YES. You know what doesn't equal consent? ANYTHING ELSE, UNLESS AGREED UPON EARLIER BY THE PARTIES INVOLVED.

[akamarykate.livejournal.com]

*hearts you like WHOA*

celli, you rock. If I could friend you all over again, I would.

[crowgirl13.livejournal.com]

Okay, I know that people have been trying to have reasonable discourse with you on this topic all day. It now seems like you are commenting just to keep stirring the pot.

[linden-jay.livejournal.com]

This is me, using my words to communicate.

Stop. Please, just stop. Stop and listen, and try to hear what people are telling you. You are hurting them. They are telling you that you are hurting them. Using their words and everything. So even if it's just for a little while, stop talking. You can always go back to talking later. There's not a statute of limitations or a limit on words. So stop for awhile. The sheer number of people who are trying to communicate to you that your words are hurting them should be enough at this point to show that they've got something to say worth listening to, at the very least.

Also, yes means yes. Just yes. Nothing else means yes. And if someone isn't willing to check themselves long enough to go "wait, I'm unclear... you didn't say 'yes'. Do you mean 'yes'? Because I want to be sure," should take a good long look at themselves in the mirror.

apocalypsos, I'm sorry if you'd rather people not engage harmonyfb in your journal. I can hush now if you'd like.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Oh, for fuck's sake, Harm. Seriously. What part of, "In the real world, people don't have the options you think they do," do you not get? In the real world, people are forced to keep silent, or have damned good reasons where they're so fucking intimidated that they can't say no.

This is victim blaming. What the fuck are these people supposed to do, get in their fucking TARDIS and go back and do it right? Because when you dissect a particular situation and say, "They should have done this," it does no fucking good. I bet they wish there were things they could have done. You're just rubbing salt in the wound.

[crooked.livejournal.com]

i have A LOT of words i'd love to use to communicate just how i feel about you and your disgusting, ignorant, and (now it seems) willfully obtuse opinions. but i will respect apocalypsos' journal, since i am a complete stranger to her, and not engage in such behavior here.

just know that i find you to be a pathetic excuse for a human being.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

My words: exactly how many ways do you need to be told that you're showing your ass?

Life is a learning process. Your process is broken.

[escritoireazul.livejournal.com]

In this conversation, stemming as it does from sexual situations and the broad rape culture in which we live, this is bullshit. You want people to use their words and own their actions, why not put the responsibility on the people doing the actions to make sure they have clear consent first? My not saying anything doesn't mean you get to touch me or have sex in front of me or fuck me or any of a host of other activities.

[allthelivesofme.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, this old "you didn't explicitly yell out "No stop it" in front of a dozen witnesses and then call the police, so therefore you must've been okay with everything that happened" crap. Victim-blaming is always so much fun to deal with.

One of the few good things coming out of this is at least I'm getting a good idea of who to stay far, far away from.

[sinnerforhire.livejournal.com]

Hell, I've had people tell me that saying 'no' but not leaving the room equals consent. And I BELIEVED IT.

Fuckers.

[reneekytokorpi.livejournal.com]

I'm not familiar with the source of the foaming, but here's what I've learned.

Silence means 'no' unless clarified. It usually means the person is uncomfortable/scared/overwhelmed/mortified and feels pressured and unable to answer honestly, and none of these is an acceptable situation. So, assume 'no', and if you are corrected it is far less damaging than assuming 'yes'. If you aren't corrected, then it WAS DEFINITELY a 'no' and you have just averted disaster.

Any answer under coercion is 'no'. Period. Doesn't matter what the actual words are. If you are forcing them to answer, then it doesn't matter what they say because you are out of bounds in pressuring them or trying to get the answer you want, so no answer they give can be trusted as honest and truthful much less as consent. So, 'no'.

And this is how to keep fun sexy things out of court.

[anonymous_sibyl]

Damn straight, baby. It breaks my heart we have to keep saying this.

[ilyena_sylph (from livejournal.com)]

*applauds*