Argh. IE exploded and ate my LJ post.

[apocalypsos]

Look, here's the thing. Nearly every person I know who's read the books is complaining because they didn't outright tell you who the Marauders were., thereby making it difficult for non-readers to know.

Here's the thing. Even if you haven't read the book, they give you all the clues you need to figure it out.

Let me explain. The twins give Harry the map and add that they stole it from Filch, indicating that the original owners of the map were students at the school. By the time Remus gets a hold of it in the hallway with Harry and Snape, we've already seen the boggart turn into a moon upon being confronted with Remus, and afterwards it's obvious without the audience being told that Remus knows what the map is. If he knows what the map is and how it works, and it's been in Filch's office all that time, it's safe to assume that Remus is Moony. With that as a basis, it's easy to get to Padfoot, Wormtail, and Prongs.

Take Sirius. Once the audience realizes that Sirius is the dog that's been following Harry, and that he and Remus are friends, he can automatically be placed in the "Padfoot" category.

The same goes for Peter. Once he changes back from Scabbers to human, it's not hard to reach the conclusion that he's Wormtail.

Prongs is a little harder, but not by much. If someone from their group had to be Prongs, who was the one common thread they all shared? That's right, James. And while they never come out and say it (Is it important enough in an already long movie to bring up the fact that he was an Animagus? No.), the fact that Harry's Patronus is a stag is a subtle hint of that.

The same goes for the potion. We hear and know nothing of it until Remus, confronted with the moon, starts to change and Sirius says, "Have you taken your potion?" This tells the audience that while we haven't seen him taking it, Remus does take a potion every month to either negate the change, or -- as people who've read the books know -- lessen its effects somewhat. Snape is the Potions teacher, and when he takes over Remus' DADA class, he uses it as an opportunity to make everybody write long essays on werewolves. Gee, I wonder where Remus was getting that potion?

And then there's The Line of Dialogue. What makes sense to you if you haven't read the book? Hermione, the one already standing close to Harry in that scene, moves in front of Harry and says it, OR Ron, the one with the injured leg clutching a rat to his chest, scrambles to his feet and says it? The movie is already two hours and fifteen minutes long, and JKR can waste all the pages she wants getting Ron to his feet.

How about Hermione, the Mary Sue who punches Draco and gets more screen time than Ron? Alfonso Cuaron did not make Hermione a Mary Sue. JK Rowling made Hermione a Mary Sue. Hermione is smarter than everybody else, "the best witch of her age" even without it beng a line of dialogue. She's brave, well-read, everybody likes her even though she's obnoxious, she's pretty ... need I go on? Hermione wouldn't punch Draco? No, but she would slap him as she did in the book, and while there's a difference between a slap and a a punch, I can pretty much say that when I was Hermione -- and oh holy Jesus, was I as a kid -- I would have punched him. I don't know many thirteen-year-old tomboys who's wouldn't have punched him.

And why does she get more screen time? I don't think it's because she's a Mary Sue. No, I think it's because that's the way the plot goes. Hermione spends the last few chapters of the book alone with Harry righting everything that went wrong. You know why? Because Ron is in the infirmary with a broken leg. It's like a trade-off from Chamber of Secrets, where Hermione spent the last half of the book frozen into a statue in the infirmary.

Look, let me sum this up as best I can. Adults get bitchy because of stuff that's left out of these movies. Little kids are happy because stuff gets left in. How many little kids did you see leaving that theater all disappointed that Oliver Wood didn't get his Quidditch win? I didn't see a little kid who wasn't thrilled to be there, and nearly all of them were saying things like "Honeydukes! Wow!" and "The Firebolt! Wow!" and "Buckbeak! Wow!"

I'd probably be pissed about things that were left out like that, but I'm not the target audience, so I don't give a shit.

Comments

[anniesj.livejournal.com]

You know what? For everyone out there who's pissed off about the exclusion of the Marauder's Map background, I'd like to say this -- I would gladly trade out that history in exchange for the Remus/Sirius slashtastic transformation scene, which was NOT in the book and kicked so much ass and should be canon forever and ever, amen.

Dude, I won't lie. I am so easy. Give me homoeroticism and angst, and I'll overlook just about anything. :)

[ceridwen_amyed]

Totally agree with you. I don't get why everyone's acting so pissed - look at the slash! The disembodied heads! The sweets that make you sound like animals!

Besides, it's not like we don't have a BOOK to read if we want to get all the backstory to the Marauders... If you want that, justread the damn book. And then you don't have to moan about how Thewlis wasn't quite Lupin-ish enough.

Never even thought about it!

[chang-o.livejournal.com]

Hey, it didn't even bother me that Cuaron did not spell out the explanation of the Marauders' Map and who made it! I agree that it was easy enough to figure that out. And who cares- what a nitpicky criticism, IMHO. It took a little while for Cuaron's style to grow on me(so different from the first 2 films),but then once I accepted the artistic differences, I thoroughly enjoyed the film. It is like HP goes artsy. :) _Prisoner of Azkaban_ is my favorite of the books, and I can't wait to see the movie again.

[dargie.livejournal.com]

I don't care for the people who haven't read the book, that's not an issue for me. I care because Harry should have known, because the story is about the Marauders, their relationship, and how they all relate to Harry. That's all I'm annoyed about.

I suppose I can pretend that he was told off camera. It just seems like a big, important hunk of information he should have been given.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Well, let's remember the people who are surrounding Harry most of the time. It's in character for them never to tell him a bloody thing, because God knows he should be protected, and then later on he goes off on some wild adventure because nobody told him the whole truth.

Besides, he was getting these clues along with the audience. Theoretically, he should have been able to put two and two together, but then, he's not the sharpest pencil in the drawer. He always gets just as many clues as the people reading the book or watching the movie are, and he inevitably still needs it spelled out for him in the end. He's kind of a doofus like that. ;)

[dargie.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, he could have figured it out. I'd guess Hermione already has. But again, I don't necessarily care about the information in an aHA! sort of way, but more as another way of Harry being connected to this group. I think telling him is more in the nature of a kindness than strictly informational. For example, if Lupin had told him that, it would've been a natural outgrowth of their increasing closeness.

And it just occurred to me that this would probably have made the "Kill him" scene play badly. But I think that scene was a mistake. It's clear all along that the kids think Lupin and Black mean to kill Harry, and that doesn't work for me. I don't see either of them, but especially not Lupin, allowing that misapprehension stand for even a moment once it's been discovered. Yes, it increases the drama, but artificially. And it SO thuds.

Anyway, back to my original point: If Sirius had had a moment to tell him who the Marauders were, that would have been a strong bonding point, too. This information puts Harry's own life at school into a different perspective. I think it has a lot to do with making him feel both more connected to his own life, and more connected to his father. And I miss that moment when he's shown that connection. Though I suppose the point at which he's waiting for his father to cast the Patronus spell, and he suddenly steps forward and does it himself can be considered to be the moment where he works it out for himself.

Still, him figuring it out doesn't have the same emotional resonance for me as being given the information. Probably my objections are a bit esoteric. *g*

[sekari.livejournal.com]

What didn't sit write with me was that in the span of the film, Harry has been Fuming and hunting with intent to kill him for MONTHS before the scene in the shrieking shack. and all in an instant after that obscure and frenetic encounter Harry trusts black like, well, like a father and is seriously considering going to live with him. I don't think a 14 year old is able to emotionally adapt that quickly. If they had included a moments pause where Lupin and Black clearly explained things to asuage any doubt in the childrens minds, then I could possibly see where the sudden trust and compassion Harry feels for someone who half an hour ago he believed kill his parents.

[fyrdrakken]

From a bonding standpoint, Lupin's talk about how he knew both Harry's parents worked even better, and just telling Harry that the other three of them had been close friends with his father while they were all in school serves much of the purpose of filling in the MWPP angle. I just regret the emotionally resonant factual information that Harry has now inherited a map his father helped create (and the lack of explanation of why Harry's Patronus took a stag form). And there's something to be said for mysteries being left till the next installment, as with the Parseltongue ability revealed in PS/SS but not shown to be significant till CoS.

I wish it had been included, but if it'll be explained in GoF (as I've heard), I won't object quite so strenuously.

[fyrdrakken]

Harry indeed isn't the sharpest pencil in the drawer, and more to the point the clues you indicate are -- well, I'm speaking from the standpoint of someone who read the books and already knows who MWPP were, so I can't say for sure whether I'd have been able to string all that together without it being stated, but I'm betting that the majority of the viewing audience aren't masters of deductive logic. I think it's just that Americans as a general audience expect a movie to spell out anything it expects the viewers to know -- Lord knows I've spent enough time watching movies I've seen before with family members who want every little mystery filled in as it comes up rather than waiting to see if the film deals with it later on.

Off topic, I know.

[reneekytokorpi.livejournal.com]

I love your icon!

Re: Off topic, I know.

[fyrdrakken]

Ah, thanks! It's by i_am_evil.

[sekari.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's what's been bothering me about explanations of the marauders being left out and you just put it into words.
I havn't read the books, but I guessed as much about them from anniesj's icon to figure it out. But forshadowing aside, you'd think that it would be very important to harry to know about that. And I don't think that it was told off screen, because the farewell scenes with Black and Lupin are shown clearly on screen without chances for any such expanation. That leaves only one person, and Snape doesn't talk to Harry.

[scouseboy.livejournal.com]

I don't agree, sorry.

For a start, you're coming at the 'who are the marauders' problem from the viewpoint of someone who already KNOWS the answer.
A fleeting glimpse of a moon in a previous scene will trigger people to automatically link the map to Lupin? Sorry, no cigar there.

And this? I mean, come on...
"Once the audience realizes that Sirius is the dog that's been following Harry, and that he and Remus are friends, he can automatically be placed in the 'Padfoot' category."
Rubbish.

It needed to be said explicitly in the dialogue, or through flashback, who EXACTLY the marauders were. Their relationship is a cornerstone to inderstanding the development of Harry, and Sirius, and to a large extent Snape. And don't get me started on the hideous tratment of the Patronus charm. Saying the film leads you to the point where the Stag is automatically associated with James is sheer folly.

As for Hermione being a Mary Sue... I'd not thought of that. Pperhaps you're right on this point, I'll need to think on. But I will say that Hermione wasn't always a blossoming beauty. She was a buck-toothed ginge at one stage. It's not until book 4 where here prettiness becomes more of an issue.

My review of the film is on its way.

[sekari.livejournal.com]

I agree, having not read the book I never would have made the connection without seeing anniesj's icon.
It was all made clear in the shrieking shack, but before that I was wondering if Lupin was the wolf and if Black was Lupin (cause we saw stuff like that in the first one)

[paradisacorbasi.livejournal.com]

[ACCIO DISCLAIMER! The following are my opinions only.]

Also, squeezing in the "we were Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs" would have made the fact that Harry's final, excellent, Dementor-bashing Patronus took the shape of a stag make way more sense.

It also would've made more sense that Snape had come all the way down to take shots at Sirius and Remus. We saw so little by way of indicating that Snape actually hated Remus (I mean the man's a bitch all the time, so the 'essay on werewolves' scene could just as easily have been him being bitchy for no reason -- the reason should've got a little more air IMO)

Yes, because we've read the book, we know why it does. But not reading the book it was like "...uh, what? First it's a stag, then it's a giant dome of protection?"

Yes, Harry should've figured out some connection after seeing Lupin transform, and then having him say, "since I'm no longer your teacher I feel absolutely no guilt giving this back to you."

Heck, even Harry having an 'aha!' moment right before his Firebolt came would've been nice.

And Hermione isn't a Mary Sue. Yes, in fairness, she did spend half the last book petrified. But on top of that, she's the only girl in the series who gets any type of facetime, and is likely to be hanging around Harry.

Plus, not everybody liked her. She had to be rescued from the Troll in the bathroom because she was crying that Ron pointed out she didn't have any friends. And she still gets picked on in later books. Only by then she's had time to develop some confidence and she just gets pissed off about it instead of going to cry about it.

But yeah, Book 4 is when we go "ooh, she cleans up nice."

[etoilepb.livejournal.com]

Re: Hermione's presence and screen time -- Books 2 and 3 alternate. Ron gets the screen time in 2; Hermione in 3. Rowling has this way of injuring her players when she wants them off the field, so to speak. Then in books 4 and 5, it's evened out so that Ron and Hermione are pretty much forming a level base to support Harry, who's pushed forward. I'm guessing it'll stay that way for the remainder.

As for making the audience infer things for themselves, I mostly agree with you. However, if it were my film I'd have dropped in a line for Lupin at the end, just a quick one to make people not in the know go, "OOOOOOOOH," because to me it seems unbalanced that Harry, who needs everything else explained to him patiently always, wouldn't bother to ask Lupin how he knew how to work the map.

[schtroumph-c.livejournal.com]

I don't have a big problem with Hermione, but all the same, as strong as she could be, lifting harry with one hand, it's a little strong. ( Or Harry doesn't eat enough. He stole Neville's lollipop after all.)

But it helps to let pass the complete change of Ron's line. Not the one in the Shack, the one in DADA's class, with Snape. ("blablabla know-it-all", "he's got a point"). In the same time, I think that in the books too :).

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Even if you haven't read the book, they give you all the clues you need to figure it out.


No, they don't. When the girlchild and I went, my Mom tagged along. She hasn't ever read any of the books. The first thing she asked when we got outside was, "How did that one professor know about the map?"

Now, I don't think it detracted, plot-wise, from the film. However, I'd love to have seen them add that back in and take out the cute but unnecessary sequence with the Monster Book of Monsters.

Heck, all it would it have taken was a three-second "How did you know what it is?" from Harry and a "Who do you think made it?" answer from Lupin.

So from my corner, a bit annoying (and a bit confusing for the never-read-the-books viewers), but not essential to the plot.

She's brave, well-read, everybody likes her even though she's obnoxious, she's pretty

Actually, from my reading, I got that very few people like her, because she's a know-it-all (and oh, how I indentify with Hermione for school experiences). I was Hermione in school...except I didn't have the two good friends. I did punch a guy in the face when I was 13, though...

[florahart]

Nope. Husband required extensive explanation as to how that whole map thing had anything to do with anyone and who these people were and such. It's all there if you already know. If you don't, then perhaps Remus is afraid of night, there's a guy who's a rat that had something to do with the death of the Potters (they never say he was their other friend too, I don't think, so he doesn't even necessarily come into the four on the map), there's a dog who turns out to be Harry's godfather and evidently knows Remus (but again, though you can tell they were friend, you don't know the school history, exactly. Hell, you don't even know Remus was a Gryffindor, do you? You know Sirius was James and Lily' friend, that Remus knew them well in school, and that Peter died. You know there is a map that insults people, but you have no idea it's specific to the group of them. Maybe Remus knows what it is because as someone who knows about dark arts stuff, he's seen one before.

I have little complaint about the rest of the flick. There are TWO things I'd have put another two minutes each into: this, and the feud between Ron and Hermione. The rest of the cuts aren't problematic, to me.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

The problem with leaving out the Marauders is that it's the emotional heart of the story. And no, the clues given weren't enough to tell someone who's who, or set up the illegality of the experiment, or show the friendship of the boys by showing what they were willing to do in order to keep Lupin company... that's the point of the story, not just that animagi exist, which we already knew. And there was simply no good reason to cut the information--that was just a stupid choice, and stupidity hacks me off. Cut a little of the absurd werewolf sequence and a couple of rock-tosses, and you can get in this important info without changing the length of the film.

[budclare.livejournal.com]

Not that I'm particularly upset about it (I have much better things to be annoyed with, like Hermione's silly pink lipstick), but I think it was a bizarre omission on their part. There's no way in hell that someone who hasn't read the books is even going to remember the names of the Marauders (unless they have a very, very good memory, which I don't). The names would just go zooming by...making it a little difficult to work the whole thing out.

[jenboo.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I would have liked to see a little explanation of the Marauders...it could have easily been inserted in a couple of sentences in a conversation, perhaps in the Shrieking Shack when Lupin and Black are there together.

Its omission didn't bother me too much, though, because I'd read the book and knew what they were all about. Yes, the connection can be made between the names on the map and the rest of the crew once we know about Lupin and Black and who they really are, but for folks that haven't read the book, the references to those names were so fleeting, it would take at least a second viewing to make the connection.

That being said, I still thought it was a gorgeous movie and can't wait to see it again.

Now, who said Hermione is a Mary Sue? Just because she's intelligent and resourceful and female? That's fucked.

[septembergrrl.livejournal.com]

I think you're giving pople too much credit to be able to figure out the map. But I also think it was subtle enough that people who haven't read the book wouldn't ask the question, if that makes sense. I have heard that the whole thing is beign saved for film 4 or 5, when it may make more sense anyhow.

Totally agree with you about the increased Hermione as a GOOD thing. What's the Line of Dialogue? I read the book a few years ago, and my memory for such things is pathetic.

[isabeau.livejournal.com]

<3

I partially agree with... uh, one of the above comments, forget which and I'm too lazy to look... that said that (re the Marauders and the clues) it's different coming at it with the background of the book. And honestly, I can't tell whether, if I hadn't read the book five million times already, I would make all of the same connections; it probably wouldn't even occur to me, because I tend to go "ooh shiny" and not /think/.

But. Yes. They don't explain the clues, but they're there.

(and all my friends are like "OMG the movie SUCKED they didn't explain everything and they chopped it to pieces and they KILLED MY BABY *sob*". I was starting to feel guilty for liking the thing... it's nice to see someone who isn't all stabby about it.)

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

(and all my friends are like "OMG the movie SUCKED they didn't explain everything and they chopped it to pieces and they KILLED MY BABY *sob*". I was starting to feel guilty for liking the thing... it's nice to see someone who isn't all stabby about it.)

Chopped it to pieces? Please. Tell it to the hand (I've watched the animated LotR. Nuff said?)

I liked PoA. There were a few things I would have done differently, but it's a good-sized book and they only have so much time. It was funny, and scary, and the acting was lovely, and I could pretend for an hour or so that I go to Hogwarts. ;)

[isabeau.livejournal.com]

I've watched the animated LotR. Nuff said?

GONDOR NEEDS NO PANTS!!!!111

...ahem.

Yes.

Ditto on the few things I would have done differently; and it's not the same as the book, but really, it /can't/ be, at least not without being the length of the Wagnerian Ring Cycle. And sure, they could have snippet a bit of one of the CGI sequences in order to throw in a line about the Marauders, but then people would be complaining about other lines they want thrown in, and... yeah.

And I want to go to Hogwarts.

*pause*

And I want a hippogriff.

Crossover

[seferin.livejournal.com]

Why didn't you tell us you guest starred in QOW?!?

http://www.queenofwands.net/d/20030201.html

[adjectivegirl.livejournal.com]

The real trouble is that no one can "un-read" the books, so things that seem scintillatingly obvious or at least a connect-the-dots kind of thing to us doesn't necessarily mean that to the audience at large. I'm a particularly virulent Stabby about the movie, I admit, and it's mostly because I felt like it insulted non-readers as an audience, particularly with the Map scenario. Plot holes are plot holes, period.

[azurelunatic]

I have, personally, slapped someone hard enough so it might as well have been a punch. He went down harder than Malfoy and stayed down longer. But I don't think that Hermione has the arm strength to pull off a slap like that.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

i can't. believe. you wrote this.
it's a pro-rant!!?!!
what happened?!
;P

[sneaker328.livejournal.com]

Total stranger popping in here because this was linked on TWoP:

I'm not going to go into the problems with the lack of backstory, and the Shrieking Shack scene. (I agree that it made more sense for Hermione to do it due to the speed of the scene- but I found the fact that it was rushed through with everyone yelling rather than being tense and terrifying to be the worst thing about the film, so that's no excuse in my mind.) What's I'll say about Mary Sue Hermione is that yes Hermione is smart, the cleverest witch of her age, brave, loyal, and...well, fantastic. And the movie portrayed that. She is also a nag, often shrill, has a horrible fear of failure and thus a tendency to overcompensate, and in *this* book she's completely stressed out and sufferring from a near nervous breakdown before she finally learns her own limitations. That isn't a criticism of her- I love her *because* she's a nag, just as Ron and Harry do, and the Hermione of the books is a flawed character who is wonderful because she works to overcome these flaws. This is what makes her a strong character. The movie's portrayal of her as a preternaturally collected supergirl without a trace of self-doubt who always has the answers despite never being seen with a single book, who can placidly take multiple classes without breaking a sweat, kicks ass and takes names (rather than her storming out on Trelawney and hitting Malfoy showing just how stressed out she's become as those actions are very out of character for her) is a disservice to the character, imo. It says to me that the Hermione of the books isn't strong as she is, but rather has to become a stereotype of Girl Power. I think the movie could have portrayed Hermione's flaws and her too-many-classes subplot without sacrificing too much in the way of time. It didn't, and yeah, I have a problem with that. Because without also showing her flaws, the Hermione of the movies *is* very much a Mary Sue. Again, imo.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

It's like a trade-off from Chamber of Secrets, where Hermione spent the last half of the book frozen into a statue in the infirmary.

You know, that's a really good point. I don't feel so bad for enjoying Hermione-centric POA anymore.