(no subject)

[apocalypsos]

So I mentioned that while I loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer and it was quite possibly my favorite fandom ever, I still loathed a ton of stuff that was done on the show. Which, hey, who can't say that about every fandom they've been in?

But now that I've said I could make a list of stuff that really, really, really angered me, I can't exactly stop myself from some hardcore bitching. I don't think I have to warn you that the opinions expressed herein are bound to piss somebody off. Therefore ...

The top fifteen things that pissed me off about Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, in no particular order ...

1. "Vampires don't have souls! That's why they're evil!" -- Jesus, I hated that part of the mythology. All humans have souls, which is why they're good, which explains every fucked-up serial killer in the penal system. And all vampires don't have souls, which is why they're horribly evil and totally focused on killing humans, like Harmony or Holden or those vampires who would pause in the middle of a fight to banter with Buffy. I was willing to buy into that soul crap for a while, but when they started toying with it in plotlines to make Angel look more special, I took my ball and I went the fuck home.

2. "I'm a female role model! That means no nookie for me!" -- It's one of the more annoying cliches that happen to strong female characters. "I'm a strong female! I don't need a man, especially for sex! No, wait, maybe I need one for sex, hot sweaty marathon sex all over the ... wait, I was wrong! I'm a strong woman and I don't need a man! Strong women use vibrators! Aw, fuck it, strong women use the sheer power of their hormones to spontaneously climax, and the only time they ever need a man is to make ex-boyfriends jealous or perhaps to reach for a jar of peanut butter on the top shelf! Yay, strong women!" Yeah, uh-huh.

3. "You like Spike with Buffy?! It's off to the insane asylum with you, you sick fuck!" -- Yes, I liked Spike with Buffy. Sue me, but I'd sincerely appreciate it if you (meaning the writing team at ME) would never have given off that snotty attitude that those of us who were S/B 'shippers were masochistic abuse-addicts even before the attempted rape.

4. "We're going to give Spike a soul, and it'll be nothing like Angel!" -- Yeah, sure it won't. Except for the part where it totally was.

5. "HA! And you thought we were actually going to marry Xander and Anya! Pulled the wool over your eyes, didn't we? *cackles*" -- Tell you what. You take this spun-from-the-lame-television-series-cliche-flock wool and shove it into a uncomfortable place like the back seat of a Volkswagen.

6. "Riley Finn is a wonderful character whom Buffy would be a fool not to love!" -- Uh, no. He's sweet and all, but Spike gave him far too much credit when he compared him to cardboard, particularly any brand of cardboard smart enough to rank as a captain. And I say this as someone who liked Riley enough to admit that on another show, the character might actually have been interesting. But he was dropped among rich characters that made his sweetness look more like the cornfed blandness it could look like. And speaking of Riley ...

7. "This is my wife, Mary Sue. I made her out of cream cheese and kindergarten paste and won first prize in the art fair!" -- Marti Noxon could not afford a therapist. She could, however, afford to drag poor Riley back just to show off the fact that not only could he get a decent girl who didn't drive him to bloodletting, but he could get a freakin' Mary Sue. Beat that, She In Need of Nose Job!

8. "I've got ten bucks that says we can make the entire viewing audience of 'Angel' throw up at the exact same time just like in 'Stand By Me'!" -- I know they had to get to Jasmine somehow, but I also know that the scene where Cordy slept with Connor is now being used as an alternative to ipecac to get poisoned people to eject their stomach contents.

9. "Say, what's the expiration date on that lesbian again?" -- Right around the time that Tara got shot, someone on one of the lists I was on mentioned the dead lesbian rule, where the lesbian relationship on a TV series can only go on for so long before one of them has to die. Hearing that when Tara was dying onscreen made me long for the days when the show actually attempted to be original sometimes.

10. "I'm a Slayer, ask me how! No, seriously!" -- I wasn't even watching anymore by the time Willow whipped up that spell that made all the girls Slayers, but I winced just thinking about it. You made everybody Slayers? Well, that's nice. Now, how do you plan to explain the fact that hundreds if not thousands of young women and girls can suddenly lift a hundred pounds without breaking a sweat? Oh, I forgot. We're ending the series, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

11. "If you'll just excuse me, I'm off to mainline eye of newt. That shit's hardcore, ya'll." -- So Willow was addicted to magic, which is bad, because if you really any sympathy in Sunnydale, your frigid shrew of a girlfriend has to drive you to get vampire suck jobs in icky crack dens.

12. "Poof! I'm a grownup! Poof! I'm an asshole!" -- Well, really, the minute Darla turned up preggers with Angel's kid, you just knew a case of Soap Opera Rapid-Aging Syndrome was incoming. But I kind of liked ... okay, adored beyond all human comprehension when Angel got cute with baby Connor (Truth be told, anytime Angel's been silly, he's more tolerable -- David's far more natural when he's goofy.), and then he had to get abducted and come back just begging for a smack. I loved the concept of Connor, but the execution left a lot to be desired. Like, say, an actual execution.

13. "Oh, I always lounge around in off-white angel robes. And yourself?" -- Cordy ascended. Unfortunately, so did my lunch. You could always tell when ME had had quite enough of a romantic pairing or any other fandom whining, because they whipped out the Special Crowbars of Plot Comprehension and beat the audience about the head with CORDY IS TOO GOOD FOR ANGEL and SPIKE IS NOW AND WILL ALWAYS BE AN EVIL FUCKING BASTARD and IT'S ALL FUN AND GAMES UNTIL XANDER LOSES AN EYE.

14. "You blew up my karaoke bar and all I got was this lousy plotline!" -- Poor Lorne. For the only time ever, someone managed to make karaoke cool, and what did he get for his troubles? They blew up his nightclub, turned him into the cocktail-swilling wacky neighbor, then sent him off to the evil law firm to have his heart broken by professionals.

15. "Angel is never coming back to Sunnydale! Well, except for that one time ... oh, and then Buffy's mom died ... and then there was that baking metaphor ..." -- I don't think I disliked Angel's once-a-season return (at least, I think that was the average) so much as I disliked the fact that every return meant another round of online fandom squealing, "OMG Angel iz coming bak WTFmeant2be!1!!1" And now, every time I see those episodes, my brain bursts into annoyed, overstressed tears. Bah.

Comments

[paradisacorbasi.livejournal.com]

Except the vampires turned out not to be evil because they had no souls. They turned out to be evil because once the soul vacated, a demon moved into the emptied out body, didn't it?

Not that I'm arguing.

[lady-eldarwen.livejournal.com]

But that still leaves us with the friendly vamps and dear sweet Clem.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

4. "We're going to give Spike a soul, and it'll be nothing like Angel!" -- Yeah, sure it won't. Except ffor the part where it totally was.

Augh so true. Ultimately, I'm an Angel/Buffy girl, but I kind of liked Buffy with Spike too, in that "OMG TRAIN WRECK *grabs popcorn*" kind of way, until he went off and became (Less Interesting) Angel Jr. Even the storylines paralleled each other. It was very disturbing, and kind of boring.

[liliaeth]

Actually, I found Spike's soul much more interesting than Angel's.
With Angel, the soul was never really a part of him. It was hey I got a soul now so I'm ok, oh wait, I don't have a soul, let's go kill everyone.

With Spike, he grew naturally into becoming a better person, learning as he went. It wasn't the soul that made him good, it was his desire to get a soul, to fight for that soul and to regain it willingly.

See, it's one of the many many differences between souled Spike and souled Angel. I'd trust Spike, even if he would lose his soul again, I'd never be able to trust Angel.

[citizenjess.livejournal.com]

My biggest problem with how Joss handled the Spike/Buffy relationship was, like you said, her constant harping on how he was OMG SUCH A MONSTER because he was soulless, and that the chip in his head only modified his behavior, but didn't change who he was inside, even though he was so obviously changed. Meanwhile, Angel goes totally bonkers everytime he gets just a little bit too happy, and Buffy totally excuses it for the baseline reason that he doesn't have a soul. I don't know, it was just one of those things you want to "*facepalm*" about a lot.

Short version: I love you.

[citizenjess.livejournal.com]

... I realize it sounds like I'm referring to Joss as "she", but um, yes. :|

[lady-eldarwen.livejournal.com]

because they whipped out the Special Crowbars of Plot Comprehension and beat the audience about the head with CORDY IS TOO GOOD FOR ANGEL and SPIKE IS NOW AND WILL ALWAYS BE AN EVIL FUCKING BASTARD and IT'S ALL FUN AND GAMES UNTIL XANDER LOSES AN EYE.

Amen sister! Amen all around really but a big amen to the tactless way they'd switch gears when fans got it in their minds to like the way things were.

ME slave drivers: "ANGST ya bastards! ANGST!!"

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I stopped watching when I started to feel like the writers were punishing me for doing it.

[silly-dan.livejournal.com]

On 10 -- I wouldn't have minded that so much if the spell had only turned the people involved in the final battle into Slayers, who could presumably give informed consent. Or if the rest of the "send two dozen Slayers after ten bazillion bad guys" plan made any sort of sense.

[liliaeth]

Oh yes! When Xander (I think it was Xander, hate that scene too much to rewatch it) said they'd saved the world at the end of Chosen, I wanted to slap him in the face even more than I already did with the joking.
They didn't save the world, they actually put it in danger. Their plan to go into the Hellmouth with only a handfull of girls that might turn into Slayers any minute now, was insane, stupid and over the top suicidal. If Spike's amulet hadn't activated, they themselves would have caused the end of the world by opening the seal of Danzalthar (?). Since there was no way in hell, those few Slayers could have stopped that entire army. That moment that Giles called that plan brilliant I was wondering who had stolen his brain. (probably somewhere since the start of the season)

(annoyed me even more when in Angel, they have Angel tell the fang gang that Spike 'helped'. He bloody well saved all their hides and those bastards couldn't even admit it, even at the end? Sorry, I've despised any and all scoobies, with teh possible exception of Buffy, as long as I believe she loves Spike at least, since the end of Chosen. It just made them look like callous, heartless, scum)

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

Written last year, but:

Thirteen Things I Don't Like About Angel (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gehayi/29262.html)

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

Wow. Except for a couple of little problems other people mentioned, that was so dead on target, especially that bit in the comments about the difference between Angelus and soulless Spike.

Another thing I forgot to mention was the Shanshu prophecy. Not that I hated its existence, but from the moment he found out about it, you could always tell that it was floating in the back of his mind urging him on, and the fact that it influenced his decisions in battle for so long annoyed the piss out of me. If he's such a hero, he shouldn't need a reward at the end, but yet, he kept going back to that more times than I can think of. Urgh.

[cacklebang.livejournal.com]

You forgot Fred. Who had potential to be interesting- until she suddenly behaved like NOTHING TRAUMATIC EVER HAPPENED TO HER (i.e.- once her parents left) for the rest of the season- and suddenly trauma returns a whole season later! Perky, girly, perfect Fred will invariably piss me off. Traumatized Fred is still annoying, but far more tolerable. Sort of like the way people call Willow's "OMGMAGICKADDICTION" is bad but they never really do much about it beyond saying "hey, no."

And Caritas got trashed- what, three times? And Angel Investigations never pays for it. I cannot even imagine his insurance rates.

[cacklebang.livejournal.com]

and that was totally not lucid. Alas!

[laurelin-kit.livejournal.com]

1. Yeah, a bit heavy handed. I almost wish they hadn't given Spike the soul, just so he could be his-kind-of-good without it and make people think more about it. If he hadn't gotten it, it wouldn't have reinforced the message that It's All About the Soul, People.

2. Agree. A strong woman doesn't have to make excuses for anything she does. It shouldn't be driven home that much, but as this was a female-empowerment show, it did have to stress that message to the teenyboppers. >.<

3. I loved Spuffy. I thought it was great and they had lightning bolts of chemistry with each other, unlike Buffy and Angel The Block Of Dorky, Brooding Wood. I hate the people who think the people that ship S/B are sick freaks. On the shallow end, IT WAS HOT!

4. At least they played with it Destiny. But, yeah. They even recreated the pilot episode of A:tS for Spike! I wish they'd gone into it more to make it not like Angel's journey. The whole soul issue, not just the faux!Doyle bit.

5. The shock would have been if they actually DID marry. A teenage show? Having a married couple? Come on, that's SO Cory and Topanga, guys!

6. I like Riley more the second time around. The first time around, he was a potato. A very tall potato with nice muscles, but a potato. Now I'm seeing the sweet guy who kicks some ass but really wants to be the knight in shining armor. Sure, I'll take him! I'm not the Slayer. I'm not the one he'll be working with day in and day out. I'm not the one he'll have to worry about as he's fighting alongside and vice-versa. She was stronger than him, and sadly, that's a problem. He's a manly man and Buffy, despite the side of her that loved to be taken care of, wasn't a damsel in distress.

7. Dumbest. Episode. It was ridiculous and pointless. I wish it could be erased.

8. Gross. I don't think there's a person alive that would not go, "GROSS" at the sight of that. Cordy/Connor in any way, mentioned in any episode, is vomitous. Bonus upchucking if faux!Cordy goes, "We're special."

9. I haven't decided on that actual point yet, but I do know that Tara, poor girl, had the stupidest death ever. The angle of the gun, the window, the....no. It just does not work. She deserved better.

10. I'm glad they addressed it in Angel, anyway.

11. I HATED THAT STORY ARC. It was annoying, over-the-top, and took away the "Wicca is okay" message they sent before! HOW COULD THEY DO THAT?

12. Dorky Angel is a sight to be cuddled. Older Connor I felt really, really bad for...when he wasn't talking. I pitied his concept, but I wanted him to just shut the fuck up. "Wah, wah, everyone hates me. Dad hates me. I'll fuck Mom. Wah, wah, you don't understand. You don't feel my pain." He needs the lecture that Jonathan got from Buffy in Earshot. Badly, and with the accompaniment of a frying pan to accentuate the punctuation.

13. Grrrrrr. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Make all my favorite pairings end before the "I love you"s. Go on. Do it.

14. Run away to Vegas, Lorne! You had fun there until we dragged you back!

15. Yeah, and did Buffy ever come to Angel? Yeah, like, twice. To break his heart. Then to bitch at him. (For a second I forgot about 'I Will Remember You.' Ironic, considering.) I think it's a one-sided relationship here. Poor Angel, he just can't get a clue.

[liliaeth]

15. Yeah, and did Buffy ever come to Angel? Yeah, like, twice. To break his heart. Then to bitch at him. (For a second I forgot about 'I Will Remember You.' Ironic, considering.) I think it's a one-sided relationship here. Poor Angel, he just can't get a clue.

Huh? Angel abandonned Buffy in S3, he's the one who left, he's the one who told her to leave his town, he's the one who made all the decisions for her, treating her like a child.

Every single time he came back I wanted to yell at him to stop breaking her heart, to stop pretending he's there, only to abandon her again the next second, when he's actually asked to put his words to action.
(sorry, Angel hater here*g*)

[xanphibian.livejournal.com]

Heee, you like to encourage the flames, don't you? *grins* *points to icon*

But this! "This is my wife, Mary Sue. I made her out of cream cheese and kindergarten paste and won first prize in the art fair!" Heeeeeeeee.

[mice.livejournal.com]

See, my biggest pet peeve was the "Willow is a lesbian" arc. She's not. She's bisexual. You know I'm not against homosexuality (hello, future gay icon over here), but I'm against false characterization. It would have been a lot more fun to have her be bi...

Xander: So...you're with Tara.
Willow: Yep.
Xander: So...you're gay.
Willow: Well...not exactly...
Xander: So...you're straight.
Willow: Well...not exactly.
Xander: So...we're going to have a threesome.
Willow: You know, if I listen hard enough, I can sometimes hear the wheels finally turning in your head.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

My sentiments exactly. (Also, that is so a conversation they should have had. *giggles*)

[faith21.livejournal.com]

Ditto to all of the above. It will still be my favorite show, because, well... have you seen what's on FOX lately? But sometimes, grrrrrr. You pretty much sum up all my grips there, so I just say, "ditto."

[malhablada.livejournal.com]

"I loved the concept of Connor, but the execution left a lot to be desired. Like, say, an actual execution."

Would it be at all possible for me to quit school and devote my life to following you around, groveling at your feel, and generally ingratiating myself to you in whatever way you see most fit?

Because that's maybe the best line I've read in anything EVER, and I'm a reader.

Cheers!

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

6. "Riley Finn is a wonderful character whom Buffy would be a fool not to love!" -- Uh, no. He's sweet and all, but Spike gave him far too much credit when he compared him to cardboard, particularly any brand of cardboard smart enough to rank as a captain. And I say this as someone who liked Riley enough to admit that on another show, the character might actually have been interesting. But he was dropped among rich characters that made his sweetness look more like the cornfed blandness it could look like. And speaking of Riley ...

Gah, Riley. I cheered when he started in on the bloodletting in S5, because he was finally real. Naturally, they then had to get rid of him. And Sam...*shudder*

Have you read Yahtzee's Quality of Mercy? I swear, this fic tears me up every time with what Riley could have been.

I think the single biggest thing that bothered me about Buffy (and like most of the show's flaws, this didn't really kick into high gear until the last two seasons) was the lip service that Marti Noxon paid towards feminism, while at every turn she punished Buffy for having sex or relationships, or any of those other things that Good Girls Don't Do.

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

What about Fred's 'Sweet Baby Jesus Will You Just DIE Already' death scene?


Icz

[liliaeth]

ooooh, or any of Wesley's S5 speeches, will they please just end already... (hides from flames from Wesley lovers, but sorry, dark Wes was boring imho)

[adjectivegirl.livejournal.com]

and shove it into a uncomfortable place like the back seat of a Volkswagen.

MALLRATS SHOUT-OUT LOVE.

[dragonsinger.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on several of these things. Now just to add a couple of mine.

1) Look, you can turn your lesbianism off and on. *Groan* I just hated it when they made Willow a lesbian. Why Willow? Oh, it's because she's the girl who couldn't get a guy. That's right. *Rolls eyes*

2) Xander/Anya. The whole relationship just left a bad taste in my mouth.

3) Illyria. That was just stupid. I'm sorry, but it was.

4) Buffy -- From season four on. Angel -- From season two on.

[secretbutterfly.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Especially number 13. DAMMIT. Fucking Spike and Buffy made SENSE. Dammit. *breathes*

[vivian-shaw.livejournal.com]

a) I love, love, love Spike and Buffy.

b) Angel's angst sometimes got to the point where I could see little wiggly angst-tentacles beating themselves against the inside of the cathode-ray tube, moaning "Let us oooooout!"

c) Riley Finn is the Gary Stu of all pathetic Gary Stus. Ugh.

[jainamsolo.livejournal.com]

Wow. About all I have to say to this list is "Word." I agree with all fifteen.

And oh, let's not forget the last-minute retconning of Wes/Fred, so that Wes could be so omgdevastated when Illyria took over. Yick. (Wes/Faith 4EVA OMG!!11!)

[liliaeth]

Oh yes, Fred falling for Wes, after not noticing him for years, just so they could have been a couple mere days before her death.
Hated Fred/Wes, but then they ruined most of Fred's romance with Gunn by having it be all about Wes*grumbles the annoyed Gunn/Fred shipper*

[dragonamara.livejournal.com]

*wipes happy tear* Oh praise! Thank you!

Good girls don't/can't have sex........big ol pile of stinking poo there!

Riley. Could have been a good character...only there was that whole pesky 'lack of development' and 'horrible two dimensionality' thing going on.

The "OMG WE'RE ALL SLAYERS AT THE BEST/DARKEST TIME!".......um, did ME suddenly forget that 'in every generation there is ONE girl....not ONE MILLION?

Conner/Cordy. *dies laughing* When my roomy and I saw that ep, we both went

o.O

Joss!! You sick fuck!!

Willow's 'I'm straight!' 'No, I'm gay!' 'No, I'm straight again' 'Nope, so gay'.....*SPORK!!* Yeah, so bi, and hated her and Kennedy. Was waiting for Kennedy to bite it. She was v annoying.

Conner....what a train wreck. He annoyed the everloving crap out of me.

Fred was kinda cool...until her hair turned blue.

My Big Burning Question (TM) is - Why didn't Angel ever bitchslap Spike? "That's my story arc!"


OK, that's it.

I've seen you all over metaquotes, you crack my ass up, you're SO friended (if that's okay anyway *grovelgrovelcookiesandsnugglesgrovelgrovel*)

[liliaeth]

Uhm, actually he did, remember Chosen, Angel's petulant whining about how he had the soul first before it was the big thing to do?

[snellios.livejournal.com]

har. Totally one for the memories. Surely there should be more wank than this already?

[sashwizzled.livejournal.com]

IT'S ALL FUN AND GAMES UNTIL XANDER LOSES AN EYE.

:~giggle snorkle sporfle~: